Rotala Kill Tank

[burr740]

My personal theory is if micros are extremely low, best to not dose much more p than the plants are using, due to the possibility of precipitation or binding together, or whatever occurs between P and certain traces


I will even take it a step further and suggest that higher P levels which seem favorable to some people, isnt because their plants need more P, it is because it helps to offset or neutralize the adverse affects of high micro dosing - and vice versa. In other words the more you dose of one, the more you need of the other.


Total speculation of course.

 

[fablau]

My personal theory is if micros are extremely low, best to not dose much more p than the plants are using, due to the possibility of precipitation or binding together, or whatever occurs between P and certain traces

I will even take it a step further and suggest that higher P levels which seem favorable to some people, isnt because their plants need more P, it is because it helps to offset or neutralize the adverse affects of high micro dosing - and vice versa. In other words the more you dose of one, the more you need of the other.


Total speculation of course.

That's exactly what I was thinking

 

[Tom Barr]

Yes, all this information is gold for us, thank you so much Vin.

I am really puzzled by the fact Tom can grow Walichii so well in a high traces environment. I can't think of an explanation for that. Can you?


A question for Burr: are you dosing macros pretty much at the same levels of this kill tank with the exception of N?


Thank you guys.

Recall I also add zero macros to my tanks in the garage and they do better than Pikez kill tank, with less dosing and attention.


The difference is the ADA AS, but it's old now, little N left.


Tanks are mostly N limited.


But, the clay soils hold vast amounts of trace metals.


So while you might wonder about the richer side, what about the even lower side?


ADA AS soil has ample trace metals and P.


So mostly N(NH4 via some fish/critter waste perhaps) and K/Ca/Mg(All water column).


I have urea. Been thinking about messing with the tanks out there.


Many folks go only one direction here, my advice is to master both directions, rich and lean(or very very lean so you see the effects of limitations specific to one nutrient).


And the richer side? Then once you master that, only then......can you really study the toxicity ranges.


Till then, you really cannot.


Note, I do not fiddle and obsess over the richer ranges, that's sort of the point, same with the leaner versions.


Any decent method will use that philosophy, because not one is going to really want to fiddle much with careful dosing really.


Look at Pikez or anyone(if they are honest), myself?


It's a bullshit sale, ferts really do not matter that much, light/CO2 really do.


So stick to that, then............see how far you can push the ferts.


For N, if you want to dose more daily carefully, then urea is likely a better blend, you can mix 50:50 with KNO3.


Dose about 1-2 ppm as N, so say 0.5-1 ppm as NH4 and 2-4ppm as NO3 a day(or once every 2-3 days etc).

 

[Pikez]

Yes, all this information is gold for us, thank you so much Vin.

I am really puzzled by the fact Tom can grow Walichii so well in a high traces environment. I can't think of an explanation for that. Can you?


Thank you guys.

I don't have explanations, only observations in my tank. I think this is more than just about traces. The differences between my Dutch and Kill Tank are several. So I cant say that the wallichii did well in December because of very low traces. It was very low everything. Care wise, it was even different from the typical husbandry that the Kill Tank usually gets.


We know the plant can tolerate extremely low traces and macros very well. We also know that it can tolerate and thrive in Tom's tank. We have to accept both facts.


Still, you can't deny that under my care, the plant does better in lower trace environment and looked it best with almost no traces.

 

[Tom Barr]

My personal theory is if micros are extremely low, best to not dose much more p than the plants are using, due to the possibility of precipitation or binding together, or whatever occurs between P and certain traces

I will even take it a step further and suggest that higher P levels which seem favorable to some people, isnt because their plants need more P, it is because it helps to offset or neutralize the adverse affects of high micro dosing - and vice versa. In other words the more you dose of one, the more you need of the other.


Total speculation of course.

Based on the above:


If I dose high traces to the garage tanks, then I should see poor growth and other so called Toxic micros.


I dose no macros to those tanks save a little fish food. If this held true, I could dose N and K/Ca/Mg, then dose traces at roughly 5mls daily(something I did for many years on several 20 gallon tanks). Just no dosing of PO4.


I've never seen any relationship under those conditions(P limitation). I've run a lot of P limited systems to see how things did.


Recall, PMDD is based upon the P limiting hypothesis. Many have used that and dosed about 0.1ppm CMS daily for many years. But , specific plant species were not grown so much as they are today. So the results need re evaluated.


Got any specific plant species you think might suffer??


I'm likely to dose those tanks a bit at this point. Just curious enough to torture the plants, but I've done it already, so I sort have a good idea what will happen, but I'd like to be more specific and look closer.


I can add Fe gluc, Fe DTPA, CMS+B.

 

[Tom Barr]

Still, you can't deny that under my care, the plant does better in lower trace environment and looked it best with almost no traces.

Generally, folks if given a choice, a neglectful low fert method is likely the best management option.


I had good results with R. wallchii in my old 15 gallon with good CO2/light and plain sand in the 1996-1998 era.


Tap had about 1 ppm of PO4, so once a week it gots some. Traces were high.


Most folks can get that lighter pink tops, the trick in horticulture is to get the entire plant a nice deep rich color.


Growing it nice is one thing, nice horticulture is another matter.


I uproot and trim it often.


In the low nutrient case, I get nice consistent growth and regrowth from stumps. Slower, lighter color, smaller, but it's real easy.


Less work. But for a nice trimmed display, the aesthetic is certainly worth the added labor.


You do not get both.

 

[Pikez]

Most folks can get that lighter pink tops, the trick in horticulture is to get the entire plant a nice deep rich color.


Growing it nice is one thing, nice horticulture is another matter.

I agree with this. I think wallichii's light pink top is pretty but a survival mode appearance.


Given the deep red color your wallichii had in the 120, I think that ought to be the ideal to strive for. Survival mode appearance should not be the ideal.


Still, the light pink tops is the best it's ever looked in my tanks, even though I discovered it unintentionally by damn near starving the plant to death.

 

[Pikez]

If this held true, I could dose N and K/Ca/Mg, then dose traces at roughly 5mls daily(something I did for many years on several 20 gallon tanks). Just no dosing of PO4.

Burr - this is not a bad idea. Have you tried your set up (or willing to try on one of your smaller tanks?) while P-limited? Lots of everything except P. You could always spike P for a couple of hours before water change if you are concerned about running too low on P.

 

[fablau]

Sorry guys, I am confused: is Tom growing Wallichii in his 120 high light and EI tank? Or just the low tech tanks in his garage?

 

[burr740]

Based on the above:


If I dose high traces to the garage tanks, then I should see poor growth and other so called Toxic micros.


I dose no macros to those tanks save a little fish food. If this held true, I could dose N and K/Ca/Mg, then dose traces at roughly 5mls daily(something I did for many years on several 20 gallon tanks). Just no dosing of PO4.


I've never seen any relationship under those conditions(P limitation). I've run a lot of P limited systems to see how things did.


Recall, PMDD is based upon the P limiting hypothesis. Many have used that and dosed about 0.1ppm CMS daily for many years. But , specific plant species were not grown so much as they are today. So the results need re evaluated.


Got any specific plant species you think might suffer??


I'm likely to dose those tanks a bit at this point. Just curious enough to torture the plants, but I've done it already, so I sort have a good idea what will happen, but I'd like to be more specific and look closer.


I can add Fe gluc, Fe DTPA, CMS+B.

Think it'd be great if you did that. The more experienced hands the hobby has testing some of these theories, the better, imo. And they dont come more experienced than yourself!


I dont know how many ppms "5mls" is, but something close to EI levels should tell the tale, or whatever you dose in the 120. Just no additional P


Far as plants, the Lythraceae family for starters, same type of stuff Pikez started this tank with. Rotalas, ammanias, that sort of thing, maybe some Ludwigias for good measure. I know you have the red and sphaerocarpa, and some variety of AR to see of the leaves will grow flat.


Also Syngonanthus and erios seem to be super sensitive to micros for me personally (except for E vietnam which is bullet proof) but I think my water may be borderline too hard for these to do well, so cant really say it's related to micros or not.


I can send you a few stems of Rotala mac variegated, sunset, and an AR or two if you want, decent specimens, not perfect

 

[burr740]

Burr - this is not a bad idea. Have you tried your set up (or willing to try on one of your smaller tanks?) while P-limited? Lots of everything except P. You could always spike P for a couple of hours before water change if you are concerned about running too low on P.

Well Ive tried higher micros dozens of times along with moderate and heavy P, but Ive never tried it with very very little.


I can do this in the 50 here in a couple weeks. Need to sell off a bunch of stuff next week, rearrange a little bit then be ready.

 

[Pikez]

Sorry guys, I am confused: is Tom growing Wallichii in his 120 high light and EI tank? Or just the low tech tanks in his garage?

He was in both. But wallichii is no longer in EI 120 gal.

 

[Tom Barr]

Well Ive tried higher micros dozens of times along with moderate and heavy P, but Ive never tried it with very very little.


I can do this in the 50 here in a couple weeks. Need to sell off a bunch of stuff next week, rearrange a little bit then be ready.

You can do what I called mega dosing right before the water change. The idea is load up the night before, then the next morning, remove it via a water change. Plants have plenty for the next few days. But nothing in the water column. Say 2-5ppm, then an 80% water change.

 

[Tom Barr]

5mls was on a 20 gallon tank 3-4x a week. This is not much really, I often did 10 mls on the higher light tanks and dosed some Karl Schroeder's liquid gold(ETDA Fe).


My routine came out about .4-.5 ppm Fe as TMG. The SeaChem Fe Gluc was also used a fair amount by SFBAAPS folks who got me off the TMG and onto CMS+B.


I think some of the EI dosing schemes are overly rich myself.


Plants might take up more Fe, but I see little horticulture improvement in adding a lot more Fe.


Growth studies on the weed Hydrilla suggest 6-8 ppm ranges as Fe, but that's just one dose, not a metered amount or residual etc over the 8 week test.


Additionally, my tanks use ADA AS, that has a lot of trace metals as well, plants can take what they need, when they need it from that source.


Foliar uptake as well.

 

[fablau]

He was in both. But wallichii is no longer in EI 120 gal.

Thanks Vin, clear now.

 

[edelry.junior]

This is a very rich thread, I could not avoid reading it in one go. Thanks a lot for all the effort put in here, especially Pikez, Burr and Tom.


Pikez, as a small comment, I have no issues with with Rotala Green and Rotundifolia, Nesaea Craussicaulis or AR mini, under an EI routine. Fe is in the 1ppm range (EDLA, DTPA, Gluc). 60 liters tank.


But this is only my 2 cents, lots to learn still.

 

[Pikez]

This is a very rich thread, I could not avoid reading it in one go. Thanks a lot for all the effort put in here, especially Pikez, Burr and Tom.

Pikez, as a small comment, I have no issues with with Rotala Green and Rotundifolia, Nesaea Craussicaulis or AR mini, under an EI routine. Fe is in the 1ppm range (EDLA, DTPA, Gluc). 60 liters tank.


But this is only my 2 cents, lots to learn still.

Really nice tank, edelry! Very healthy.


There are lots of people growing these plants perfectly well in EI dosed tanks. We need to keep this in mind while the EI-kills-everything folks are posting online.


Questions:


What's your light and CO2?


How much CSM+B do you dose?

 

[fablau]

This is a very rich thread, I could not avoid reading it in one go. Thanks a lot for all the effort put in here, especially Pikez, Burr and Tom.

Pikez, as a small comment, I have no issues with with Rotala Green and Rotundifolia, Nesaea Craussicaulis or AR mini, under an EI routine. Fe is in the 1ppm range (EDLA, DTPA, Gluc). 60 liters tank.


But this is only my 2 cents, lots to learn still.

Very nice indeed. I am really curious to know what Pikez has asked as well, I struggle growing AR with EI dosing, so... any more info is very welcome!


About Fe dosing, how much of that is from CSM? Or, better, how much micros do you dose? Thanks for sharing.

 

[edelry.junior]

Questions:


What's your light and CO2?


How much CSM+B do you dose?

I will create a post to get into more detail, I really need more help, but to answer you:


• 2x24w t5, 11 hours photo period, 3 hour break in the middle.


• I am afraid to say how much CO2 I have. I think I have a reasonable amount because my drop checker is always yellow, almost white. Fishes are okay. According to CO2 tables I have 70ppm, but I do not trust that. 500g of CO2 last 1 month in my 60l aquarium, with a little misting that scapes the reactor.

 

[edelry.junior]

About Fe dosing, how much of that is from CSM? Or, better, how much micros do you dose? Thanks for sharing.

Hi Fablau, I live in Germany and access to dry ferts is not easy, lots of stuff are regulaged, but I am getting this sorted out. Got mist of the stuff already from TNC.


But, to speed up my switch to EI, I bought the Aqua Rebell stuff (aquasabi.de), already diluted and ready to be used. I got in touch with the guys and they provided me all info.


I will share the details with you guys, but please keep in mind: I just started into EI. My dosing choices are only my best attempts at it. I am well aware I am just a noob.


I use three products, a macro mix and two micros, one with Fe EDTA, DTPA and traces, called Eisen Volldünger, and another with Fe gluconate and traces, called Flowgrow. I think it is important to mention that Potassium, in reasonable amounts, is present in both trace mixes.


Weekly dosage of Eisen Volldünger, split in 3 doses amounts to:


Fe 0.6ppm


K 6ppm


Mg 2.4ppm


Mn 0.285ppm


Cu 0.036ppm


B 0.024ppm


Zn 0.012ppm


Mo 0.024ppm


Weekly dosage of Flowgrow, split in 7 doses amounts to:


Fe 2.392ppm


K 1.750ppm


Mg 0.583ppm


Mn 0.088ppm


Cu 0.001ppm


B 0.047ppm


Zn 0.005ppm


Mo 0.006ppm


On top of that I dose N and P, and a bit more K.


As I said before, I will create a thread about my tank, because I would love some feedback