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Rotala new growth - tiny and twisted

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Pikez, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Can't seem to get this fixed. New leaves on Rotala colorata are growing really well and then - bam - dramatic slow down, tiny and twisted leaves. Same thing has happened to other Rotala species - wallichii, macrandra, sp. Nanjean. What is this genus trying to tell me?

    Potential issue: was on vacation a 2-3 weeks back. Came back to low CO2 and BBA, hair algae etc. Fixed CO2 back to where it was pre-vacation and no BBA and hair. And lots of water changes. So now, old leaves have algae but new leaves don't. Need to trim old leaves.

    In case it was Ca deficiency (per this: http://deficiencyfinder.com/?page_id=370) I've been dosing CaCl2 with macros.
    In case it was N (per this: http://deficiencyfinder.com/?page_id=613) I'm still dosing 10 ppm every other day.
    In case it was B (per this: http://deficiencyfinder.com/?page_id=428) I'm dosing 1 tsp of CSM+B into the 180-gal tank every day.

    kan1n6.jpg

    w1vded.jpg

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Likely did not fix the CO2 as well as you thought.
     
  3. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Tom - is this a Rubisco up/down regulation thing?

    I normally have pH at 6 to 6.1 and vacation guy let it slack to 6.3 - 6.4 for a few days. I had it back to 6.1 the day I got back.

    1) Did the plants pausing to 'shift gears' cause the sudden algae bloom?
    2) I assume I made plants pause once again when I increased CO2??
    3) The nice growth in the Colorata was AFTER I fixed the CO2…and the stunted tips was about a week after I fixed the CO2. THAT'S what has me puzzled.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tom - is this a Rubisco up/down regulation thing?

    I normally have pH at 6 to 6.1 and vacation guy let it slack to 6.3 - 6.4 for a few days. I had it back to 6.1 the day I got back.

    1) Did the plants pausing to 'shift gears' cause the sudden algae bloom?
    2) I assume I made plants pause once again when I increased CO2??
    3) The nice growth in the Colorata was AFTER I fixed the CO2…and the stunted tips was about a week after I fixed the CO2. THAT'S what has me puzzled.
     
  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Has your plant mass increased after the accident? Maybe you need more co2 than that. What's your PH drop? Also, besides Co2, lack of micros could cause those issues IME.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    If the KH moves......then what happens to the CO2 is you rely on pH solely?

    Yes,a temp slump can cause this, but you should see good recovery fairly quick.
    Maybe a week or two for some species.
    Most respond faster though.


    KH might play a role, higher KH's less/slower recovery.

    Not sure about that one.

    A decline in CO2 is a sure fire way to induce algae for most tanks.
    Still, post treatments include more water changes, 2x a week 60% or so.
    Algae, stunted growth etc, more water changes, focus on CO2, add ferts after water changes etc.

    It's the same routine.
    Plant biomass can be addressed: trim the plants.

    Check KH though.

    If it moved.......then there's an issue.
     
  6. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Tom - if KH moves, I'm screwed. Mine's usually around 4.

    But KH is always going to move unless I reconstitute RO water, which I'm not inclined to do at the moment.

    There are a couple of issues here - first is CO2 stability. I feel like the instability comes from turning it off at night and on again in the morning. I used to keep my CO2 on 24 hours with pH controller and things felt more stable and I was able to grow Tonina, Lud Pantanal, and Nesea and other touchy plants better when CO2 was constant day and night. Sure, probe could crap out. But I feel strongly that the day/night on/off cycle is throwing off the stability I used to see. That mythical 'plateau' style CO2 concentration has been a little difficult to achieve. My pH is not at 6.1 or 6.2 (where i want it) when the lights come on even though I have the CO2 turning on a couple hours before. This could be reactor inadequacy too. Instead of driving the CO2 super hard during the day and stressing out the fish and never quite getting to the CO2 levels I want and then completely slacking off at night, wouldn't it be better to have the CO2 stable 24/7, even at a slightly lower level?

    The second issue is that of using pH probes. I don't understand the resistance to using probes. Sure, they are prone to glitches. No argument there. And they need regular calibration. But at least they give me some sense of what I'm doing. Somewhere to draw the line. I don't understand how one could dose gobs of CO2 into a system without any metrics. Short of having a CO2 probe (which I'd be willing to buy if I could find a good one), a pH probe appears to be the second best solution. No?

    For what it's worth, new Rotala leaves are growing in fine. Algae are turning grey and dying off. For the first time in a year, no GDA or BGA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tom - if KH moves, I'm screwed. Mine's usually around 4.

    But KH is always going to move unless I reconstitute RO water, which I'm not inclined to do at the moment.

    There are a couple of issues here - first is CO2 stability. I feel like the instability comes from turning it off at night and on again in the morning. I used to keep my CO2 on 24 hours with pH controller and things felt more stable and I was able to grow Tonina, Lud Pantanal, and Nesea and other touchy plants better when CO2 was constant day and night. Sure, probe could crap out. But I feel strongly that the day/night on/off cycle is throwing off the stability I used to see. That mythical 'plateau' style CO2 concentration has been a little difficult to achieve. My pH is not at 6.1 or 6.2 (where i want it) when the lights come on even though I have the CO2 turning on a couple hours before. This could be reactor inadequacy too. Instead of driving the CO2 super hard during the day and stressing out the fish and never quite getting to the CO2 levels I want and then completely slacking off at night, wouldn't it be better to have the CO2 stable 24/7, even at a slightly lower level?

    The second issue is that of using pH probes. I don't understand the resistance to using probes. Sure, they are prone to glitches. No argument there. And they need regular calibration. But at least they give me some sense of what I'm doing. Somewhere to draw the line. I don't understand how one could dose gobs of CO2 into a system without any metrics. Short of having a CO2 probe (which I'd be willing to buy if I could find a good one), a pH probe appears to be the second best solution. No?

    For what it's worth, new Rotala leaves are growing in fine. Algae are turning grey and dying off. For the first time in a year, no GDA or BGA.
     
  7. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Fablau - I'm very careful about plant biomass. If it gets too high, tank crashes. So I always do a massive trim and water change before I have to travel for work or vacation. This is an important lesson. It usually takes 3-4 weeks after going on vacation to get the tank doing well again. It invariably goes sideways when I'm gone.

    pH drop is about 0.9 to 1. Any more than that and the fish die.

    Keeping up with micros with 1 tsp of CSM+B per day. Going to add 1/4th tsp of 11% iron DPTA every other day to see how that helps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Fablau - I'm very careful about plant biomass. If it gets too high, tank crashes. So I always do a massive trim and water change before I have to travel for work or vacation. This is an important lesson. It usually takes 3-4 weeks after going on vacation to get the tank doing well again. It invariably goes sideways when I'm gone.

    pH drop is about 0.9 to 1. Any more than that and the fish die.

    Keeping up with micros with 1 tsp of CSM+B per day. Going to add 1/4th tsp of 11% iron DPTA every other day to see how that helps.
     
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