Fellow Aquarist, Calling for Help

Tug

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Hmmm;

You can always have window screen cut to size and place it over the tank to block light. Sorry, I never emphasized the problems with to0 much light. It's just, so many people already said something. Why say it again and again. My two cent concerning the use of a siesta. I understand that people do it and have a certian amount of success. But, if I were to turn on the lights before I go to work they would come on mighty early and my fish would jump out of their skins. :eek: Besides, I can see mine just fine from the rooms ambient light in the morning.

P.S. I'm not much of a DIY person myself. That is what works so great with this filter adaptation. You have one hole to drill. The drill hole doesn't even have to be a perfect fit for the CO2 line. I do understand your apprehension though. No problem. All good.
Steven said:
Sadly Tug, I'm not that DIY-er, I even doubt my own skill :) but thank you.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6231-DIY-CO2-reactor-surface-skimmer
You should be able to adapt your power head in some fashion. The CO2 has already run through a reactor. All you need, is to run the CO2 line to an aerator on the pump if it has one or at the intake opening if not. Much easier to clean and keep an eye on the CO2 then with the JBL.
 
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Tug

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Maybe jonny_ftm will explain why using a spray bar decreases flow.

The flow rate from your old filter is closer to what I use. Jonny, is the flow rate with this JBL too high for this tank? Would steven be better off with the canister filter of 900L/H or would a spray bar work to reduce the flow from the existing filter?
Steven;48382 said:
FYI, the output current of my spraybar is too strong with the filter powerhead I have (have tested it before)
Plants have a rough time adapting to different CO2 levels. While iron is often said to cause thread algae, it is more likely related to CO2 and lighting in some fashion.
Steven said:
I have Seachem Iron lying around but the last time I used it in conjunction with Flourish and Trace, I got thread algae infested on all of my HC mat. This time, I will be extra cautious. Thank you all.

No problem.
Good Luck,
 

jonny_ftm

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By plants at 80%, I meant soil surface. Starting with plants like HC, glosso, P. helferi... is a very bad idea on a non cycled tank. They take many weeks to adapt. Once they adapted, they will grow rather fast. But during their adaptation, they won't do it against algae, lack of nutrients... Better is to start with simple fast growing stems. I don't advocate floating plants. I do use them, but it needs a good knowledge of the amount of light at soil. I mainly use them to shade some light on limited soil areas where I put Anubia and slow growing ferns. I do prefere Ceratophyllum and Salvinia minima as they let some light pass. I try to adapt surface flow so that they won't spread on all tank surface, shading light on more demanding plants.

About photoperiod, the rest period is for me just a non sense. It's unatural, stresses fish... Plants need at least 4h continuous light to have an efficient photosynthesis starting. Algae will suffer more maybe with this technique, but, on the long run, I'm not sure plants will do it. See aquarium as a natural biotope and not just as an esthetic object. Like with any company animal, some sacrifice from your side is needed. You won't be able to have the lights on all the time, and when ever you like, sadely. For me, it was also a hard thing to accept when I started in the hobby. Many will use many tricks to avoid algae (rest period, aligicides, excel, fish...), but the most stable solution and easier to manage is having a free from algae aquarium, just without any specific chemical targetting algae. That's all EI is about

For the pump, I personally have a 700lph filter (185gph) on my 12gal/45L nano (Only 23L/6gal real ater volume), without a spray bar, and I don't find it too strong at all. Spray bars will decrease water flow by adding resistance. I personally do prefere open front tanks, with output reduced in diameter by a LocLine adapter to have a higher pressure flow, direct it on front glass towards oneside of tank and having inlet in same side as outlet. I never had success with spray bars, I find it harder to manage and less esthetical.

I also agree with Tug, Iron won't cause alage when optimal conditions for plants are present. Most here dose above 1ppm/week without issues. CO2/Light balance is always mislooked at

To resume it all, follow Tom recommendations, dose full EI and not the small quantities you do and decrease light to around 2wpg, then have some patience and eventually replace decaying plants with more hardy stems until the tank cycles
 
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Steven

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@ Tug
You are really still remember my old filter capacity, that's great and you are right, 900L/H. Actually that one is sufficient but after I switch from CO2 glass diffuser with reactor (my reactor is placed at the outflow of my filter + surface skimmer), I found and fear out that it would be not enough flow/circulation, so I decided to replace to a bigger one that is 1500L/H. FYI, JBL's manual stated that the 1500L/H is tested without any media in it, with any media, the flow will reduce accordingly. When Tom suggested me to increase flow to help CO2 distribute, I even found out that the old 900L/H filter is too strong although I placed it at the width side of the tank (remember that the height of tank is 40cm minus substrate and a couple cm of surface water). Strange, I find that using spraybar will increase the power of flow but you are on the contrary side with me. Thank you.

@ jonny_ftm
What did you mean by "Starting with plants like HC, glosso, P. helferi... is a very bad idea on a non cycled tank"? My tank has been running for almost 3 months now and I have just replanted the HC twice, the first time is stunted for 2 months that I decided to replace with the recent one and has been there for 2 weeks now or did you mean that the AS needed to be cycled first without any plants?

Right now, the things that I change to hope for an improvement are :
- Increase the CO2 rate (have just replaced the new same model reactor, the old one has not being operate at 100% anymore due to the worn part).
- Add an extension to lower the output of my filter/CO2 to help better CO2 distribution and prevent the quick gas off to the surface but by this method, another new problem arise, there's almost no surface agitation and the temp rise a little bit further but I add another fan to compensate this and in the same time I have to add more and more evaporation water everyday.
- Increase my PO4, K, Flourish, CaSO4 and MgSO4 but reduce NO3.
- Will try to leave the "Siesta lighting period" soon.
- Will try to reduced the light to 2x21watts soon.

and hoping things will turn out nicely. Thank you all fellows for the value suggestions and inputs.
 

jonny_ftm

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Often the 3-6 first months can be the trickier for cycling the tank without algae and with plants in good health
25 ppm/week NO3 with your light doesn't seem much. Tom showed us that up to 100 ppm, it won't hurt, so I won't lower it for now, unless you have a good calibrated test kit showing you're above 40-50ppm before WC
 

Tug

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Not just me my friend.

Be careful not to gas your fish by revving up your CO2 too soon after changing the filter out put. O2 is important to remember too.
Steven said:
- Add an extension to lower the output of my filter/CO2 to help better CO2 distribution and prevent the quick gas off to the surface but by this method, another new problem arise, there's almost no surface agitation and the temp rise a little bit further but I add another fan to compensate this and in the same time I have to add more and more evaporation water everyday.
Try moving the powerhead closer to the surface to add some surface agitation. Maybe look for some lock lines. You are limiting your options by keeping the reactor attached to the canister filter. Find a pump/powerhead that can do the work instead. Something to think about.

I hope you can make this work.
Good Luck,
 
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Steven

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I can't find any lock lines anywhere in my town LFS so I don't have that option but thanks and instead I will turn my small powerhead to side-way position and up close to the surface and I know that by that position will make the propeller inside worn easily (maybe I have to buy a new one once a month later).

Ok, some report to make after a week of increasing CO2 and some fertz.

- NO3 level have reduced to 10ppm.
- PO4 still in 0.1ppm.
- Fe still in 0.1ppm.
- gH still at 4 dgH (looks like my plants didn't consume both the calcium and magnesium yet).

Tomorrow, I will WC 50%, increase more PO4 and Fe while maintaining NO3 level and both the CaSO4 and MgSO4.

Plants status :
  • Not so much change to Anubias petite and Needle Leaf Java fern as these 2 plants is out of trouble since from the beginning but I can see pretty much bubbles on lower side leaves on both plants but I'm not sure they are really photosynthesizing or just the CO2 bubbles mist collected.
  • Flame moss looks like there's something stuck/grow/collected around the base of the moss and I don't know what is it, something brownish and like decaying plant matters but the moss looks healthy. I will take a pictures tomorrow.
  • Downoi, the leaves look like shrunken/smaller and smaller each day.
  • HC, looks worsen a bit though I can see a little of them pearl a bit here and there.
  • Rotala green, sending new shoot faster than usual after just been trimmed last week but the new grown shoot leaves appeared smaller leaves size too but pearl like crazy I never see before but again, don't for sure if there's only collected passing CO2 bubbles mist as my tank now is full of CO2 bubbles.
  • Ludwigia arcuata, the last standing 2 week survivor and the only one that already grown new leaf and gave me hope has finally gave up its last breath but I have re-planted more just about 3 days ago (still in emergent form).
  • HM, less melting these few days but still some here and there a bit.

Algae condition :
  • There is still some new BBA on driftwood and a bit on Anubias after just being Excel spot treatment last week.
  • BGA, my worst enemy that I hated the most has finally showing its ugly form (my oh my) lurking above the substrate near front glass tank panel that I already spotted their early stage form below substrate last week and I already anticipated them by sticking black tape along the glass panel but won't help much, they just rise from substrate now in search for light to reproduce (why on earth God gives me BGA?). FYI, my previous setup was also attacked by BGA using ADA AS II too (is this soil often a BGA magnet?) and I did a blackout for 3 days, they are terminated but so as my downoi (heard from some peoples that downoi won't last 3 days blackout and it's true).

I almost desperate now, why I never success in spite of so many that I have done the best? Right now I'm beginning to wonder if it is true that a KH of 0 will make things unstable?

Thank you all for reading and helping me. Wish me luck please :).
 

jonny_ftm

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0.1ppm PO4 is ridiculosly low, target for +2ppm. Aim 20ppm NO3 at least. Fe at 0.1 ppm too is another issue. Well, you were already told all that in many of above posts...
Monitoring your NO3, PO4, Fe, changing things every week... won't help you sadely.

Why don't you just dose EI as you were adviced? Decrease light and check your CO2 as you also were adviced. Give it a try, wait 3-6 weeks and give us a feedback, I'm sure you'll be happier :)

Begin with the sitckies here:
http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/38-Estimative-Index

I'm sure they will help you
 

Steven

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Indeed I have decreased the light, increased the dosing and re-fix my CO2 level and distribution and I know the dosing part still in too low, I'm increasing it further in this coming week, jonny_ftm.

Sorry for asking again, last week my dosing regime was like :

I dose 1.83ppm NO3 each time and in a week it should be 5.49ppm, at the end of week when I tested the water, the NO3 raised to 10ppm.
I dose 0.89ppm PO4 each time and in a week it should be 2.67ppm, at the end of week when I tested the water, the PO4 remained 0.1ppm.
I dose 4ml (0.14ppm) Flourish each time and in a week it should be 0.42ppm, at the end of week when I tested the water, the Fe remained 0.1ppm.

Say, If I target PO4 as you advised 2ppm, at the end of the week when check the water, how many ppm approximately should the PO4 remain? That's all and thank you.
 
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Tug

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Hi Steven,
You have a wonderful gift for design. The hardscape and plants the way you arranged it looks fantastic. So start feeding them and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I understand your concern about the levels of NO3. I spent a lot of my time trying to understand ppm and dosing levels. What I can share with you is this- follow the yellow brick road. Now that you see your nutrient levels are dropping your plants have turned a corner and need the full on EI doses.

A BGA outbreak feeds on organics - dead plant mater feeding the BGA and poor water circulation creating “dead spots” are were you will find it. Early on I had a small out break do to some of the same issues. My fix was to eliminate the “dead spots” by improving the water circulation, to eliminate some of the light by adding some tape along the outside of the glass were it hangs out and to add CO2 while getting my dosing levels (particularly KNO3) stable.

I have a tank about the same size as yours and have not seen any problems with using the full EI dose. In fact, the opposite. I have changed it up some, but the amount ends up being the same. If you would like to look at the long, drawn out, over thought version use the link is in my signature next to dose. While compiling all that information and trying different things what I was left with was the realization that I was better off targeting the recommended EI dose and in all honesty I haven't had a worry about what is remaining since then. 1/16 tsp dry No3 ~ 3.9ppm. dosing this amount every day has never been an issue. 1/32 tsp dry PO4 ~2.5ppm dosed every other day - maybe a little rich but never a problem.

Edit - If you have ~10 ppm NO3 after every water change then you will be fine and my water has 2ppm PO4 right out of the tap.

Hang in there.
 
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jonny_ftm

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No need to measure with test kits, just add in the ppms from EI, about 2-3ppm of PO4, 3x/week, 7-10ppms NO3 also 3x/week, you'll be fine then to only focus on CO2 and light
 

Tug

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Zonk

Steven;45406 said:
It appears that Sample #1 is RO water since it get nothing in it and Sample #2 is filtered water so it contains PO4 of 1 ppm and the kH and gH is 3. Now you got it? :)

I think I will pick sample #1 over #2 but will work my best to obtain CaSO4 and MgSO4 for some gh boost...but I'm afraid that I will not be able to get CaSO4 but instead of CaNO3, will it be ok? Does CaNO3 contains nitrate? I feel I don't need KSO4 as I will dose K2SO4. Thank you very much Tug and DaBub

Go with Sample #2!
What is behind door number one Monty?
Thank you for asking.
 
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jonny_ftm

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Go with #2 too for me: no need to play with Ca and Mg salts = less work and you get a good PO4 buffer if you're too lean on dosing PO4
 

Philosophos

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Having GH or KH does not guarantee having enough of both Mg and Ca. I have water with a KH of around 7 out of the tap, but only 1.5ppm of Mg at most when tested by the water department. It's also possible to have tap water with a massive KH but no GH and no calcium or magnesium; it happens in the UK where some systems use sodium bicarb to prevent pipe corrosion. Don't count on having all of anything until you know, and if you don't know then dose it anyways; 20ppm Ca and 5ppm Mg more is not going to be an issue for anything. Well okay, maybe if you're trying to spawn something like T. candidi... but who does that in a planted tank?
 
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jonny_ftm

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You're right Philosophos, completely forgot about Mg. Tap water is very poor usually in Mg
 

Tug

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Still A Need 4 Ca and Mg Here.

If I remember, the water behind door number two has 3 dKH and PO4 levels around 2ppm.
But yes, an excellent point. I would dose 10-20ppm Ca and 2-5ppm Mg, if I knew how to measure out a teaspoon. :p
 
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Steven

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I was disappointing the last time I chose sample #1 as I was fearing the initial high PO4 from sample #2. Last Sunday, I was just WC 60-70% with water from sample #2 that has both kH and gH of 3 and planning on more WC to the next Sunday until my tank water has both kH and gH of 3. I hope all of my plants will survive and bounce back as of right now, some of downoi have die (it appears that they refuse to root and melted from bottom to top while there are still some leaves remaining, very strange phenomena).

Dan-Philosophos, do I really need to add Mg and Ca in that water too(sample #2)? The water gH is 3dgH, if so, I will add both CaSO4 and MgSO4 but many and how much further to raise the gH up to? Will any body please tell me how is the relation of buffering alkanity between kH and CO2 as some say that the higher the kH the more stable the buffering, what does that mean? Thank you.

How do you guys think that my tank will become considering that I'm changing the water to sample #2, while also increasing the EI dosing and CO2? Do my plants still can rebound back to healthy? How much time will they need? Thank you.

Lastly, one thing that I'm curious most about is say that I'm too lean on dosing during this time but there is ADA AS that known to provide the high nutrient plus my Seachem Root Tabs, why not the plants just use some from them if the water is too little for what they need? Thank you and I will post back the first thing I see an improvement.
 
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jonny_ftm

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GH is mainly the sum of Ca and Mg salts. So, a GH of 3 can be all Ca or all Mg, not necessarely both. Tap water is poor in Mg. Better add some MgSO4, use fertilator to get the ppm/grams/tsp needed

KH/CO2/PH is a weak buffer. Most plants will do fine wih a KH from
 
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Steven

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Yes, you lighten me up once again. I will increase more of my EI dosage, increase CO2. Thank you jonny_ftm.

I like to ask a silly question though, will CO2 injection lower the kH? Thanks.

I have done 2X 60-80% WC with water of both kH and gH of 3, but my kH now still in between 0-1 dkH (the first drop already turned to yellow but very light yellow) and I guess it's the AS II which will lower the kH also, right? Hmm...can't wait to see it rise a bit.

For information, I have made a comparison, the last time I bought my Ludwigia arcuata and Hemianthus micranthemoides was about 10 days ago. I planted all of them in my home tank but spare a stem or two to be planted in my office tank.

Home tank spec :
  • Tank age 3 months.
  • Size 80x30x40cm.
  • T5 lighting with semi good reflector.
  • Ample flow with overkill size filter 1500L/H + small powerhead 400L/H.
  • Super rich nutrient Aquasoil + Seachem Root Tabs
  • Pressurized CO2 injection diffused by a reactor.
  • EI dosing.
  • pH 5.2-6.8, kH 0, gH 4.

My office tank is designed to be low light, low maintenance, low tech and non CO2, the spec are as follows :
  • Tank age 1 month.
  • Size 75x30x40cm.
  • T8 lighting 1.5wpg with tin can reflector.
  • Filter is only 900L/H with no extra powerhead.
  • Purely inert sand + WonderGro Root Tabs only.
  • No CO2 enriched but substituted with Excel every other days 2.5ml.
  • Dose JBL Ferropol once a week and Ferropol24 every day 2 drops (both the fertz contains no NO3 and PO4 as the products claim).
  • pH 6.9-7.1, kH 3, gH 3.

The result is my arcuata at home have been melted half of them, so as the HM but the arcuata and HM in my office are still survive until now (not a single of them is melt yet). Both the plants are from same source and approximately same condition and planted at the same day but why they are melted first in my home high tech tank first?

So, peoples, I think it is true that the water we are going to be used in planted tank is necessary to have some kH in it too, at least it is my best guess and assumption until now, although I know that 0 kH will not cause pH to swing (I never noticed pH swing during this time for having 0 kH of tank water) as some claim it will, maybe it is about balance or something?

I just noticed that I'm killing my plants with love, slow and very slow, one by one they are crumbling, they are growing today, sending new shoots next day but melt completely the other next day. They just cycle like that each time I plant them.

Thank you.
 
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jonny_ftm

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That's a typical case where you can assume that only KH is different between tank and that explains your issues. And hence a quick conclusion of: KH is the cause.

I don't agree at all, otherwise, why many people here using