Taking the plunge to liquid ferts and auto dosing questions

easttech · Jun 27, 2013

Hello,

I need to automate my process here and want to move to auto dosing. Here are the current stats on my tank:

350 gallon including sump
medium light
Co2 injection, homemade reactor 2' X 6" fed by a NW pump on timer runs 1 hour before lights and off
35 watt UV
ph is 6.7 daytime, 7.9 at night
KH is 5, GH is 112
pretty good fish bio load, medium plant density

I am dosing the following dry ferts daily/weekly as indicated
Micros ¾ tsp micros daily
Kno3 1 tsp daily, was 2 but my N03 went to hight so lowered it
KH2P04 ¾ tsp daily
K2S04 4 tsp weekly after WC
Seachem Iron

I am moving from a manual 10% WC dailey to a continous drip WC at roughly 10% daily as well, also include my 50% weekly with plant trim and cleanup

Not sure when going to auto dosing if I should continue with daily amounts or go larger weekly, does it matter?
I would like to extend this to make it last a month before having to refill. I was thinking of suing the Vertex 2.5L Libra dosing canisters, not sure I can get the required amounts of ferts and monthly duration from a vessel this size?
I believe if I make my mix more concentrated I can dose smaller amounts/
I am planning on buying the BRS dosing pumps, BRS 2 Part Doser – 1.1 mL per minute
I am thinking 2 vessel's? One for Micros and one for Macros? Can I mix my liquid or dry iron with either of these?

So how do I go about converting my dry volumes and frequency to liquid volume and frequency?

I hope I provided enough info to get some good direction moving forward.

Thanks!
John

thegasman · Jun 27, 2013

easttech;115572 said:
Hello,

I need to automate my process here and want to move to auto dosing. Here are the current stats on my tank:

350 gallon including sump
medium light
Co2 injection, homemade reactor 2' X 6" fed by a NW pump on timer runs 1 hour before lights and off
35 watt UV
ph is 6.7 daytime, 7.9 at night
KH is 5, GH is 112
pretty good fish bio load, medium plant density

I am dosing the following dry ferts daily/weekly as indicated
Micros ¾ tsp micros daily
Kno3 1 tsp daily, was 2 but my N03 went to hight so lowered it
KH2P04 ¾ tsp daily
K2S04 4 tsp weekly after WC
Seachem Iron

I am moving from a manual 10% WC dailey to a continous drip WC at roughly 10% daily as well, also include my 50% weekly with plant trim and cleanup

Not sure when going to auto dosing if I should continue with daily amounts or go larger weekly, does it matter?
I would like to extend this to make it last a month before having to refill. I was thinking of suing the Vertex 2.5L Libra dosing canisters, not sure I can get the required amounts of ferts and monthly duration from a vessel this size?
I believe if I make my mix more concentrated I can dose smaller amounts/
I am planning on buying the BRS dosing pumps, BRS 2 Part Doser – 1.1 mL per minute
I am thinking 2 vessel's? One for Micros and one for Macros? Can I mix my liquid or dry iron with either of these?

So how do I go about converting my dry volumes and frequency to liquid volume and frequency?

I hope I provided enough info to get some good direction moving forward.

Thanks!
John

I don't think it will matter too much since you're already doing 50% WC per week, but I prefer the larger weekly water changes of 75%.

The Vertex containers should be fine or you can use something cheaper like old milk jugs. I like the professional looking containers myself though. You can make the fert solution as strong or as week as you'd like. The only issue that I can see would be if you had a major dosing pump failure with a strong fert mix. I run a strong mix that lasts me about a month. Be sure to add Excel (20ml of Excel to 500ml of ferts) to both the macro and micro mixes to prevent mold from growing in the containers.

Two containers like you said will work fine. You can add your iron to the micro mix.

Use this calculator http://calc.petalphile.com/mobile to figure out your doses. Plug in what you currently add in dry form and see what it says for "my dose". Then plug in the info based on a "solution" mix and choose "target". Use your calculations for what you are currently dosing as the target. This should tell you how many ml's of solution that you need to dose. Set the dosing pump timer to dispense that amount. Be sure to test the dosing pumps for accuracy. The two that I purchased are the BRS Drews dosing pumps. One pumps .1 ml more than it's rated for and one pumps .1 ml less than it's rated for.

easttech · Jul 14, 2013

thegasman;115586 said:
I don't think it will matter too much since you're already doing 50% WC per week, but I prefer the larger weekly water changes of 75%.

The Vertex containers should be fine or you can use something cheaper like old milk jugs. I like the professional looking containers myself though. You can make the fert solution as strong or as week as you'd like. The only issue that I can see would be if you had a major dosing pump failure with a strong fert mix. I run a strong mix that lasts me about a month. Be sure to add Excel (20ml of Excel to 500ml of ferts) to both the macro and micro mixes to prevent mold from growing in the containers.

Two containers like you said will work fine. You can add your iron to the micro mix.

Use this calculator http://calc.petalphile.com/mobile to figure out your doses. Plug in what you currently add in dry form and see what it says for "my dose". Then plug in the info based on a "solution" mix and choose "target". Use your calculations for what you are currently dosing as the target. This should tell you how many ml's of solution that you need to dose. Set the dosing pump timer to dispense that amount. Be sure to test the dosing pumps for accuracy. The two that I purchased are the BRS Drews dosing pumps. One pumps .1 ml more than it's rated for and one pumps .1 ml less than it's rated for.

gasMan, apologies but this calculator is foreign to me and no idea what it is giving me and in some case what I should be inputting. with my current dry fert dosing using EI is there another easier way to convert to a premix. I did in fact buy the Vertex 2.5 liter containers and the BRS 1.1ml dosing pumps. Hope to get this going soon

Tug · Jul 14, 2013

easttech;116130 said:
gasMan, apologies but this calculator is foreign to me and no idea what it is giving me and in some case what I should be inputting.

Gasman, keep giving out the old address to the calculator and this will keep happening. Try providing the new address for the easier to understand calculator. http://rota.la

each:

easttech · Jul 24, 2013

Tug;116157 said:
Gasman, keep giving out the old address to the calculator and this will keep happening. Try providing the new address for the easier to understand calculator. http://rota.la each:

My apologies, I just cant seem to get any of these calculators to give me what I am looking for, I must be doing something wrong, brain dead or a combination of both but I cannot get the info I need to go from dry to liquid auto dosed.

For ease of conversation here are some basics if it will help in soliving my questions on my tank, lights, filters, WC's, and current dry dosing amounts and frequency.

My tank with the sump and plumbing is about 350 gallons.
I am doing an auto drip WC of about 10% daily and a large 50% weekly
I am injecting co2 at some ungodly bubble rate through a needle wheel pump into a very large (3' X 6" DIY reactor) then feed into the uptake return section of the sump
Lights and co2 on for 9 1/2 hours a day, typical 1 hour before lights on and off
ph during lights and co2 at about 6.65, dKH of 6 so should be in a decent spot of co2 ppm, drop checker nice green
Moderately planted, pretty good fish load
nitrates before WC of 20, during the week 10-15
decent LED lighting that I have been trying to dial in since it has blue, dark blue, red and 10K white, dont think I have it quite right yet but making changes slowly
I currently have a BBA problem and a week ago increased my co2 and dropped ph from 6.8 to 6.65 also lowered amount of KH2P04 I was adding to the amount/frequency liisted below, did not see much improvement in my BBA problem, Today reduced my blue intensities, see if that helps.
Dont think I have missed anything?

The following is what I am currently dosing
KH2P04 1/4 tsp daily
KNO3 1 tsp daily, was at 2 tsp but due to good bio load I have reduced as my nitrates were getting a bit high
K2S04 3 tsp a week after 50 wc
1 tsp plantex csm+b daily
Also Seachem Iron daily but will be going to the dry chelated and hope to auto liquid dose

I currently have 2 seperate dosing containers each 2.5 L each and I am assuming one for macros and one for micros each with a BRS 1.1ml/min auto doser that actually calibrates to 1.4 ml/min.
I would like to put as much of a concentration that I can to I hope at least get me to 3 weeks before refilling. Ths BRS will be controlled by my Apex Energy bar and will turn on as required daily and length of time.

For what ever reason I cannot seem to get what my mix will be using the dosing calculators. Can someone help with that please, I am frustrated and feeling pretty ignorant for not being able to figure this out. I am also curious should I mix the iron with the Plantex? Do I add excel to both to prevent mold?

if I have missed anything please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

john

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

Still sound sliek a CO2 issue, stick with 6.65 for now, and see if you get new growth of BBA, if so, then you'll need to drop by about .03 to .05 units and watch and see. Then repeat as needed till you have awesome plant growth.
Plants really grow well and thrive with good CO2. The still grow with less than optimal CO2..........but algae and some issues will still be present.
6.8 was asking for BBA.

I'd run about 1-2 Tables spoons worth of KH2PO4 a week, about 3-4 of the KNO3, and maybe 1 of MgSO4 and another of K2SO4 at about 2 a week.
Dilute that into say 2 liters and fire 2 liters/7 days = mls per day added.
Traces, about 1 Table spoon of CMS+B and 1 teaspoon of DTPA Fe(Sequestrene 330). You can also add excel at about 200mls a day if you want.

That's the easy part.

The hard part is going to address the CO2.

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

Still sound sliek a CO2 issue, stick with 6.65 for now, and see if you get new growth of BBA, if so, then you'll need to drop by about .03 to .05 units and watch and see. Then repeat as needed till you have awesome plant growth.
Plants really grow well and thrive with good CO2. The still grow with less than optimal CO2..........but algae and some issues will still be present.
6.8 was asking for BBA.

I'd run about 1-2 Tables spoons worth of KH2PO4 a week, about 3-4 of the KNO3, and maybe 1 of MgSO4 and another of K2SO4 at about 2 a week.
Dilute that into say 2 liters and fire 2 liters/7 days = mls per day added.
Traces, about 1 Table spoon of CMS+B and 1 teaspoon of DTPA Fe(Sequestrene 330). You can also add excel at about 200mls a day if you want.

That's the easy part.

The hard part is going to address the CO2.

PK1 · Jul 25, 2013

What is it specifically that you can't figure out with the dosing software? If you let me know where you get stuck I'll try to help.

easttech;116377 said:
My apologies, I just cant seem to get any of these calculators to give me what I am looking for, I must be doing something wrong, brain dead or a combination of both but I cannot get the info I need to go from dry to liquid auto dosed.

For ease of conversation here are some basics if it will help in soliving my questions on my tank, lights, filters, WC's, and current dry dosing amounts and frequency.

My tank with the sump and plumbing is about 350 gallons.
I am doing an auto drip WC of about 10% daily and a large 50% weekly
I am injecting co2 at some ungodly bubble rate through a needle wheel pump into a very large (3' X 6" DIY reactor) then feed into the uptake return section of the sump
Lights and co2 on for 9 1/2 hours a day, typical 1 hour before lights on and off
ph during lights and co2 at about 6.65, dKH of 6 so should be in a decent spot of co2 ppm, drop checker nice green
Moderately planted, pretty good fish load
nitrates before WC of 20, during the week 10-15
decent LED lighting that I have been trying to dial in since it has blue, dark blue, red and 10K white, dont think I have it quite right yet but making changes slowly
I currently have a BBA problem and a week ago increased my co2 and dropped ph from 6.8 to 6.65 also lowered amount of KH2P04 I was adding to the amount/frequency liisted below, did not see much improvement in my BBA problem, Today reduced my blue intensities, see if that helps.
Dont think I have missed anything?

The following is what I am currently dosing
KH2P04 1/4 tsp daily
KNO3 1 tsp daily, was at 2 tsp but due to good bio load I have reduced as my nitrates were getting a bit high
K2S04 3 tsp a week after 50 wc
1 tsp plantex csm+b daily
Also Seachem Iron daily but will be going to the dry chelated and hope to auto liquid dose

I currently have 2 seperate dosing containers each 2.5 L each and I am assuming one for macros and one for micros each with a BRS 1.1ml/min auto doser that actually calibrates to 1.4 ml/min.
I would like to put as much of a concentration that I can to I hope at least get me to 3 weeks before refilling. Ths BRS will be controlled by my Apex Energy bar and will turn on as required daily and length of time.

For what ever reason I cannot seem to get what my mix will be using the dosing calculators. Can someone help with that please, I am frustrated and feeling pretty ignorant for not being able to figure this out. I am also curious should I mix the iron with the Plantex? Do I add excel to both to prevent mold?

if I have missed anything please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

john

easttech · Jul 25, 2013

PK1;116387 said:
What is it specifically that you can't figure out with the dosing software? If you let me know where you get stuck I'll try to help.

PK1, difficult to explain in an email. Any chance we could have a chat?

easttech · Jul 25, 2013

Tom Barr;116383 said:
Still sound sliek a CO2 issue, stick with 6.65 for now, and see if you get new growth of BBA, if so, then you'll need to drop by about .03 to .05 units and watch and see. Then repeat as needed till you have awesome plant growth.
Plants really grow well and thrive with good CO2. The still grow with less than optimal CO2..........but algae and some issues will still be present.
6.8 was asking for BBA.

I'd run about 1-2 Tables spoons worth of KH2PO4 a week, about 3-4 of the KNO3, and maybe 1 of MgSO4 and another of K2SO4 at about 2 a week.
Dilute that into say 2 liters and fire 2 liters/7 days = mls per day added.
Traces, about 1 Table spoon of CMS+B and 1 teaspoon of DTPA Fe(Sequestrene 330). You can also add excel at about 200mls a day if you want.

That's the easy part.

The hard part is going to address the CO2.

Thanks Tom!
Amazed at how fast one can grow to hate BBA. I was a little cautious about cranking up my co2 due to consumption. Still too early to get an accurate read on that as its still too new and not enough time to determine, also have made tweeks along the way. Started with a 5lb tank and that lasted all of 11 days, upgraded to a 30lb with my dandy new reactor and went 6 weeks. Had some issues with that last tank I believe as it went I think way too fast and the tare weight as told to me by the provider and what I weighed it said it should have had more left in the tank. When I brought it back they gave me a new filled tank for free. However when I came home and weighed it full I believe it now was in fact empty. Since then I did also scale back my lights and co2 run times by about 2 hours a day (forgot to mention that in my prior post) but then also cranked it up slightly so not sure where I will end up. I was really hoping I could go 6 months before have to refill, partly due to cost but mostly because I don't want to deal with that big tank that often. Going to a 50 lb tank is even more difficult. We'll see

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

Big tank= lots of consumption.

Rather than bubble counting, I use an inverted measuring cup(good enough) with mls measure.
Then measure how much gas it fills after 5 minutes.
This is Volume of gas vs time, or a dose of CO2, this is stable. There's not monkey business in this measurement.

BBA will appear and even after you correct the root cause, it'll stick around and do okay. The trick is not to induce it in the 1st place.
And if so, you nail it ASAP => rapid response plan!!!
Do not wait.

Mass water changes with Excel spray or spot treatments, H2O2 etc.
20-30lb tanks you can still hand carry FYI.

50-100lbs tanks, forget it. Hand Dolly only and then chained to the wall for safety protocols.
Do what I mention above for the dosing, then you can worry about the CO2, which is the real issue.

Bean animal style overflows will help a great deal also.
If you have issues, plan on 2x a week water changes, say 60-70%.
Back off when things are going well.

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

Big tank= lots of consumption.

Rather than bubble counting, I use an inverted measuring cup(good enough) with mls measure.
Then measure how much gas it fills after 5 minutes.
This is Volume of gas vs time, or a dose of CO2, this is stable. There's not monkey business in this measurement.

BBA will appear and even after you correct the root cause, it'll stick around and do okay. The trick is not to induce it in the 1st place.
And if so, you nail it ASAP => rapid response plan!!!
Do not wait.

Mass water changes with Excel spray or spot treatments, H2O2 etc.
20-30lb tanks you can still hand carry FYI.

50-100lbs tanks, forget it. Hand Dolly only and then chained to the wall for safety protocols.
Do what I mention above for the dosing, then you can worry about the CO2, which is the real issue.

Bean animal style overflows will help a great deal also.
If you have issues, plan on 2x a week water changes, say 60-70%.
Back off when things are going well.

easttech · Jul 25, 2013

Tom Barr;116398 said:
Big tank= lots of consumption.

Rather than bubble counting, I use an inverted measuring cup(good enough) with mls measure.
Then measure how much gas it fills after 5 minutes.
This is Volume of gas vs time, or a dose of CO2, this is stable. There's not monkey business in this measurement.

BBA will appear and even after you correct the root cause, it'll stick around and do okay. The trick is not to induce it in the 1st place.
And if so, you nail it ASAP => rapid response plan!!!
Do not wait.

Mass water changes with Excel spray or spot treatments, H2O2 etc.
20-30lb tanks you can still hand carry FYI.

50-100lbs tanks, forget it. Hand Dolly only and then chained to the wall for safety protocols.
Do what I mention above for the dosing, then you can worry about the CO2, which is the real issue.

Bean animal style overflows will help a great deal also.
If you have issues, plan on 2x a week water changes, say 60-70%.
Back off when things are going well.

Tom,

I have started to do spot excel and will try and eradicate and reduce conducive environment. Even my 30lb is tied back to prevent accidents.

The Bean Animal I will have to investigate. I have noticed my overflows make lots of water noise, just now able to compare to a 55 gallon I just bought used and it is super quiet. Is this something I can retro with taking the tank down?
Already doing 10% daily and can increase with auto drip wc system to probably 30-40% daily if I wanted. Should I up my auto drip and increase dosing?

This is a great feeling to know I am getting close to having this tank dialed in, and when I do it gonna look nice!

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

I think a good % of the issue is that pesky overflow, if it's making a lot of noise, that's never good for CO2.

Fix/do the bean animal of some version of this and the tank will run better over time.

Tom Barr · Jul 25, 2013

I think a good % of the issue is that pesky overflow, if it's making a lot of noise, that's never good for CO2.

Fix/do the bean animal of some version of this and the tank will run better over time.

easttech · Jul 26, 2013

Tom Barr;116420 said:
I think a good % of the issue is that pesky overflow, if it's making a lot of noise, that's never good for CO2.

Fix/do the bean animal of some version of this and the tank will run better over time.

After some basic research doing the bean animal is not an option at least not now. Will have to wait till the tank comes down for some other reason. Any other suggestions? This is a Marineland 300 dd. Anyone else have this tank and made modifications?

Tom Barr · Jul 26, 2013

easttech;116431 said:
After some basic research doing the bean animal is not an option at least not now. Will have to wait till the tank comes down for some other reason. Any other suggestions? This is a Marineland 300 dd. Anyone else have this tank and made modifications?

No, fix this.

If you have 1 pipe, add two drain pipes. You can add a slightly higher/taller drain overflow inside the prefilter area, drill another hole etc, then another hole in the sump, to connect and add the tubing/bulkheads.
Till you fix this, I think you will have a lot more trouble.

You do not need to add the ball valves, the slight different in drain stand pipe heights will suffice.

Tom Barr · Jul 26, 2013

easttech;116431 said:
After some basic research doing the bean animal is not an option at least not now. Will have to wait till the tank comes down for some other reason. Any other suggestions? This is a Marineland 300 dd. Anyone else have this tank and made modifications?

No, fix this.

If you have 1 pipe, add two drain pipes. You can add a slightly higher/taller drain overflow inside the prefilter area, drill another hole etc, then another hole in the sump, to connect and add the tubing/bulkheads.
Till you fix this, I think you will have a lot more trouble.

You do not need to add the ball valves, the slight different in drain stand pipe heights will suffice.

Gerryd · Jul 26, 2013

easttech;116431 said:
After some basic research doing the bean animal is not an option at least not now. Will have to wait till the tank comes down for some other reason. Any other suggestions? This is a Marineland 300 dd. Anyone else have this tank and made modifications?

If you simply increase the height of the INTAKE standpipe inside the wiers this will raise the water level and reduce the drop/waterfall effect.

These are usually 1" pvc. Just get a coupler and install between the existing standpipe and the intake strainer. Raise .5-1" or so as needed and you will be good to go.
You can also simply remove and replace the existing standpipe with a longer one..

A bean or herbie is still much better, but this will reduce the noise and the c02 degassing at least somewhat.

I did this with my old RR 180 with twin corner wiers and it worked very well...

easttech · Jul 26, 2013

Thank Gerry. This is going to be my only option for now. I cannot take the tank down to do the bean animal, its just not an option at this point. I'll give it a shot. I would settle for cutting down on the noise for now and hope to get less degassing.

John

Taking the plunge to liquid ferts and auto dosing questions

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