Yellow leaves

[pin54]

Hello. My name is Dominik, I come from Poland and interesting in aquaristic since I was a kid, but with breaks. I am sorry for my english, I am still trying to learn it.

About 3 years ago I started new, small tank with DIY ion exchange substrate (made of cat litter) and water direct from tap. I tried to fertilize with ready fertilizer (unknown compositon) from one of the largest polish producer - unfortunately, no result. Then I tried EI - bought CO2, salts ... no results. I thought that I have to hard water and I bought RO...no result. Next idea was to change substrate for something tested - I bought one which is very popular in Poland, and has good opinion and I changed tank for bigger (120L)...no results. After about two years of various 'tests' I liquidated tank. Now (one year later) I am trying again, but from beginning I have the same problem with which I was fighting earlier. The tops (1-4cm) of plants such as Rotala green (especially), Rotala indica etc. are light green, yellow-green, yellow or sometimes almost white. Leaves of Microsorium are yellow from the middle to the tip. In both case veins are darker then the rest of leaf.
I started new tank almost two weeks ago with tap water only. After several hours I seen that all plants become less green (some plants came from other tank, some were invitro). First week I did not fertilize (first day I added 17ppm of potasium, but I didn't add more in this week after I seen what happened with plants) and I was changing 50% of water every 2 days. In second week I change 50% of water every 3 days and I started fertilize with the half of a dose from this calculator (I planned full dose in third week) http://calc.petalphile.com/ it means daily:

PO4 - 0,37 ppm
NO3 - 1,6 ppm
PMDD (1/2 dose from instruction from package)
CO2 - liquid in indicator is yellow, never green, even morning. I have no life in tank but if will be, I am 100% sure that will be dead (previously I had fishes and shrimps). Dissolved with DIY reactor, which is connected to the filter. CO2 is enabled 2 hours before lights and turn off one hour before lights
K - 17 ppm (only with exchange of water)

Below some parameters of my tank:
Capacity: 128L
Light - 4 x 24W (0,75W/l) but lamp is about 25cm overt the tank (illuminates the tank and half of a room) and I putted 'mosquito net' which absorbs about 2/3 of light - tested with DSLR camera. I made it because I wanted to limit light at the beginning.
Filtration: Eheim 2215

Parameters of water in tap:
NO3 - 2,3 mg/l
Mg- 13 mg/l
Ca - 112 mg/l
Fe - 0,06 mg/l
K - 2 mg/l
PO4 - 0 mg/l

Mn - 0,020 mg/l
Cl- 24 mg/l
sulphureous - 54 ug/l
fluorides - 0,24 mg/l
Al < 10,0 ug/l
Cd

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,

I think you have way too much light for such a small tank...Plus I think you are underdosing your EI ferts....

I would not trust that a yellow drop checker means you have enough or stable c02.

What did you measure with your dslr and the light?

I think that you should dose macro and micro ferts DAILY for 2 weeks and remove 2 of your tubes. Leave the 2 that provide the best spread over the tank.

Can you provide a pic or two of the tank, light, setup so all can be seen?

What brand of substrate are you using? Can you provide a web url or link?

Thanks, Your english is fine...

 

[pin54]

1. Light
I have no possibility to measure an intensity of direct light, but I am able to measure intensity of light reflected from an object - result is not in lux, lumen or any other SI unit, but I am able to compare the intensity from several different setups. I am using Canon DSLR camera, which has quite precise TTL system of measuring reflected light.

If you (or anybody other) do not know a theory of photography, there is a summary.
- shutter speed is measured in fraction of second, for example 1/100s
- if time is twice as long (1/50s) it means there is a half of a light (1/25s means 1/4 of light which is with 1/100s)
- unfortunately we have limited number of steps (3) time shutter for doubled light - 1/50, 1/60, 1/80, 1/100 - it increases the 'measurement error' but it is not a laboratory

Today I checked 5 setups
1. basic setup - 4x24W - lamp about 6-7cm over the tank (it is a normal position of lamp, I planned to have this setup in future) - 1/100s
2. 3x24W - lamp about 6-7cm over the tank - 1/60s
3. 2x24W - lamp about 6-7 cm over the tank - 1/40s

4. 4x24W - lamp about 25 cm over the tank, without mosquito nett - 1/50s
5. 4x24W - lamp about 25 cm over the tank, with mosquito nett - 1/30s

As you can see, 2 tubes give about twice less light then 4 tubes, therefore I think the result is reliable. You can see also that setup which I have now gives even less light then two tubes in normal position.

Summing: I do not think that I have too much light. Now I have only about 30% of light which I can have from these four tubes.
Previously i tried setup with 2 tubes (not in hanging lamp, in cover - tubes 1-2 cm over the water surface, almost all light was reflected to the tank - there was not enought light for some plants (glossostigma), but others plants wasn't more green then earlier.
I am affraid that if I will reduce a light I will have problems with plants and diatoms. What do you think about it ?

2. CO2
I also do not trust But it is one of the best way to check an amount of CO2 in water (not good but the best). It's JBL test, inside is water 4kH with liquid. If the CO2 level is correct liquid should be light green. In my tank, (dark) green liquid I see only when I put it into tank rest of time it is yellow.
Last time I had shrimps and fishes, and some of them did not survive cause of CO2 level. I remember how much bubbles dosed previous time and the color of test and this time I dose more. I use this DIY tool (without this green tube)

It dissolve gas almost in 100% therefore I think level of CO2 is stable. All plants move in a water.
Today I measured how much CO2 I dose... 2,2 liter in every hour, it is 24 liters daily. Because a water surface does not move, and I have still a lot of bacteria on it, I almost do not have gas exchange - no loss of CO2.

Of course I can give more gas and I can put JVP circulator (3000l/h) - but I tested this combination...without result, and I am affraid that Hemianthus will fly around the tank

3. Sustrate
SHOP
Producer hasn't english version of webpage, but in this shop in UK you can read about it. It is cheaper version of ADA Amazonia.

4. Ferts
I dose ferts daily (only potasium is with water exchange). I started with half of dose, because plants are small. In next week I will pour full dose.... but I do not expect any change Previously I dosed weekly:
NO3 - 31
PO4 - 4,8
K - 21,6
Mg - 7
Fe - 0,5 (full micro)
And this is previous tank

On this photo you can not see, but plants are yellow (tops of them) - even plants which grow in a shade.

5. Current pics of tank
There is a little mess in roots, and composition is not yet complete but I will care about it after I will solve the problem with the plants

All above are only my conclusions. I know that somewhere in this 'puzzle' is a mistake, therefore if you have any new idea, please write

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,

I like the layout of your tank very much....

Light

1. It sounds like you are measuring the INTENSITY of the lights. I understand that you are not using the max capacity of the lamp. However,

a. It still may be more light than you think.
b. It may be more light than you are providing enough c02 and nutrients for.
c. Light measurement for plants can really truly be measured with PAR or PUR.

2. C02 - a drop checker only states what the c02 WAS in a specific spot up to 2-4 hours in the past. I would argue that the plants are the best indicator of c02 levels...

I think part of your issue is the lack of surface movement and any additional 02. Tom has stated and I have found that 02 is a VITAL part of the c02 equation. By adding more 02, more c02 can be added or tolerated by fish and critters. I know I limited the amount of c02 I could add until I added a wet/dry and thus more 02. Fish are no longer stressed by high c02 levels due to more 02 24/7.

3. Ferts - I see no reason not to dose 100% of macros/micros even if plant mass is less right now.

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[pin54]

But how much I should reduce the light? I have 0,75W/liter - even using the full it is not an impressive amount. As I wrote, I think I am using about 30% now...If I will reduce more, I am affraid that will be not enough for some plants, especially those deep at the bottom.
I am using ordinary tubes with ordinary PAR - there are a lot of people which have 0,75W/litr or more (with the same PAR), they use full of it, and they do not have a problem. I am using 30% of light - I don think that the light is a problem.

pH of my water from tank (without gas, after 12 hour) is about 7,8 (scale of my test is over) - it is normal pH for water with this kH - it means, water has not too much acidifying compounds, it means, If I will count CO2 level from pH it will be quite precise.
pH of my water was about 6,7-6,8, it is about 40ppm of CO2.

As I wrote, previously I used full dose of ferts. Some time I used even more, and plants were still yellow.


I read a lot about EI, I understand that the cause most of the problems is CO2light and I tried fix it in my tank but I have no result. I know that If I do not try to make it again, you do not help me therefore I am trying again:
- I did a shadow in a part of tank (there is a rotala green) - in part only because I am afraid about hemianthus
- I pour full dose of ferts (NO3 - 3,2 ; PO4 -0,6; PMDD - daily + 17ppm K with water change)
- I am dosin more CO2 - pH of my water is 6.3 or less (test scale is over), it means I have 130ppm of CO2 or more. Even if there is a mistake for about 50%, still I have 2 times more then I need
.- I put circulator - tank looks like a mountain river
- now I have gas exchange becaus JVP spins a surface

I do not expect any change because I tried this combination previously...but I hope I will inform about results.

 

[pin54]

After 3 days, I think, I have to stop the test. I have brown algae on stones and glass (brown dust) and condition of some plants getting worse (hemianthus is pale) I do not know why, maybe there is too much CO2 and pH is too low...
What is the reason of brown algae ? It was appearing in my tank always when I was having too little light.

EDIT:
I forgot to write...rotala which is in shadow still is yellow, as it was.