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Would you like to see my 1.000 litres tank in Zoetermeer, The Netherlands?

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by Bartl, Jul 16, 2010.

  1. Bartl

    Bartl Junior Poster

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  2. hbosman

    hbosman Guru Class Expert

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    Very nice. It looks like you have the dutch style mastered. So, are you a Feyenoord fan?
     
  3. Bartl

    Bartl Junior Poster

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    Ajax

    Sorry but I prefer Ajax.
     
  4. ibanezfrelon

    ibanezfrelon Guru Class Expert

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    Bartl , i'm very, very impressed!

    The tank is beautiful!

    When i grow up , i'm gonna have a tank like that :)
     
  5. hbosman

    hbosman Guru Class Expert

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    Well your tank is nice anyway. :)
     
  6. chad320

    chad320 Prolific Poster

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    That was my vision when I got sucked into collectiritis...
     
  7. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Bart,

    Yes I would very much like to see it...Oh, it is a 'web' site and NOT a personal invite to your home lol

    Beautiful garden!!!!

    Very very nice placement and growth.

    I hope you don't mind me bookmarking the page to always check which plants work well together...Like a reference book..

    Absolutely lovely...
     
    #7 Gerryd, Jul 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2010
  8. dbazuin

    dbazuin Guru Class Expert

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    Very nice!

    Whats that about Zoetermeer.
    Seems that it has more then his fair share of good looking tanks.

    Greetings from Delft
     
  9. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    I agree the tank looks good. I was there to see it live. :)

    Bart, I could also see some nutrient and CO2 deficiencies. Your tank could even look more beautiful using the Estimative Index and more / better CO2 dispersion. Give it some serious thought and read the topics of interest.

    regards,
    dutchy
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    No aquarium is ever perfect, we can get closer and closer. This aquarium is a very challenging to photograph, since it is so long. This also makes a challenge to aquascape.
    Using many different nice sized groups and triangle shapes helps a great deal. Since you cannot get the full effect on one view easily, it helps to break up into many different groups and contrast.
    This seems to be a main theme in most Dutch NBAT aesthetics. I think many love this aesthetic, particularly those that enjoy a variety of different plant species. Many aquarirst go over board and lack enough control to chose nice groupings, they keep adding more and more species. I call this a disease "collectoritus", or too many species. To do the aquascape well, "collectoritus" must be addressed and self discipline maintained.
    This is difficult for most new planted hobbyist. I use some elements of older dutch scaping methods, but developed my own style since I have always had lots of nice driftwood available. Driftwood displaces plants, so a balance must be struck. The same is true for rock work. As the plants grow, they often overshadow and hide ther driftwood and the rock work.

    This takes a lot of the work of trimming out of the scape by adding elements that do not require trimming.
    But........we can also reduce and control the rates of growth in any aquatic plant garden with light intensity.

    So we can control the rates of growth by light.
    We can also control the rates of plant growth by limiting PO4 moderately.
    Plants respond reasonably well to moderate limiting PO4.
    This is not for algae control however.

    Some older tanks I've seen from the 1940's-1950's used no CO2, but still did very nice gardens.
    This also is used to reduce the rates of growth and thus maintains the garden at the prime state we want.

    Designs and aesthetics vary a great deal and are very personal.
    But finding horticultural methods to achieve and maintain these varied goals are much less personal and much more applied to the hobby. They make management easier and health and vitality of the aquarium nicer.
    These are much more common goals than design/aquascape alone.

    ADA style of aquariums has taken a large leap in the last 10 years, but I'd like to see this style brought out of NR and more into a world wide style. I think it has a lot to offer the person who truly loves the plants.
    I love fish and driftwood, so those take a large role in most of my own aquariums. Really nice tank Bart. That is a lot of work and good timing for the post grow out phase.

    Dutchy,
    If Bart pursues non limiting CO2/nutrients, then the rates of growth will increase perhaps 2-3x. Unless the aquarium has a reduced light PAR, maybe 20% reduction, the rates of growth might be a lot more work than Bart might be willing to deal with.
    So this can be both good and bad depending on his management goal. Good if the goal is to have optimal plant health/growth rates, and he enjoys pruning/topping.
    If the goal is less pruning, and he is happy with the way things are going, he does not want to reduce the light intensity or cannot do it easily, then maybe not.
    Often there are a few bumps when someone switches, but most of the time I've found most are pleasantly surprised and happy.

    I also suggest a good rich sediment as well as rich water column, then good rich well mixed CO2......then reduce the light down to 40 micromols or so along the bottom of the sediment.
    Many are conflicted since they believe more light is better, but this conflicts with having to add more CO2 and more nutrients.

    This ADA tank has the same light as my 180 Gal tank as well as my 120 Gal etc.

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    With even larger tanks, I reduce the light to 20-30micromols along the bottom.
    Rather than larger plant groupings, trimmed at a slope front to back, I make a large mound of driftwood and attach plants to this to give a Reef wall like effect with freshwater plants/driftwood, rather than coral and live rock.

    This is a 3 meter x 1.3 meter x 1.3 meter tank with a 1500 liter sump.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You do not want to know how to trim this tank!!


    [​IMG]

    A nice shallow tank 60cm deep is so much nicer!!!

    This tank is 350 Gal

    [​IMG]

    Resized350galafter.jpg

    These tanks are much more light limited. They are much easier to maintain and are for clients who do not want such fast growth.

    Smaller tanks are much easier to garden!!!

    Bart, you might try entering the tank in the ADA contest, it would be interesting to see how they would fair. Amano claims to have never seen what is called a Dutch planted aquarium. I sort of doubt that is true, he may not have known what specifically one is, but I'm certain he has seen one or many. Still, to judge any aquarium, it must be seen in person, a photo is really art, not the truth.


    These tanks above use about 25-30 micromoles, which is getting down to the minimum light limits for many plant species.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    I'm sure that would be easy to accomplish in this case. Bart has a dimmer system, so it would be easy to reduce the PAR to around 30 to 40 (is now 65). All it takes is turn the knob. Together with non limiting nutrients and non limiting CO2, this would give better (more beautiful) plant growth without too much an increase in growth speed.
    Plant health that is suboptimal requires more pruning because of algae, falling leaves and stunting.

    I know it's a big tank, not easy, but light (if you have a PAR meter) and nutrients are easy at any size. CO2 maybe another issue that would make major changes needed. That's already hard enough to do on a smaller tank...

    regards,
    dutchy
     
    #12 dutchy, Jul 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2010
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Likely would be fine if all he did was dim to 40 micromols. That would decrease CO2 stress and nutrient stress with no other changes made.
    Plants would look nicer, healthier, lusher, less algae issues, less energy cost. Adding a tad more CO2/ferts would round things out then.
    You can still good results gardening and scaping without optimal plant growth. Say 60% optimal growth. Then reduced light might increase this to 80-90%, that's pretty good at that point, but you can still add more CO2/nutrients and get closer to 90% or higher.
    Then mastery of both horticulture and gardening is done.

    Next, add some fish that are well suited for the aquascape, well placed in the home, and easier to work on and garden, automated water changes etc.
    There's always something you can do to improve the system.

    My plants are nice and red at 40 micromols, so are ADA's tanks.

    You can also switch to topping stem plant instead of replanting the tops only, this saves a lot or work and maintains the shape of the layout.
    But you have to have good regrowth for this to work well.

    There are few fish so there's little risk with CO2 adjustments as long as they are slow and methodically.

    You also get a lot more light use efficacy out wattage added per unit growth of plant with good rich CO2/non limiting nutrients.
    Ole and Troels both come to this same conclusion at Tropica.

    http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx
    George Booth and myself both made comments about usign less light back in the late 1990's.
    ADA. once you measure their PAR on the set ups are also all curiously similar.

    This aquarium has about 75 micromols at the sediment and is a lot more work:

    resized38gal705.jpg

    I switched to 1/2 this light and the plants still looked nice and maintaining this aquarium was much much easier.

    light => CO2 => nutrients

    Once each of these are understood, then you can do all sorts of methods.

    I love the tank though.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
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    Bartl - a masterpiece. Amazing tank and plants - thank you!
     
  15. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Tom, how do you see the light limitation happen in a tank with dimming lights, different curves and different colors throughout the day, would you go for keep each light at a max. intensity of 40micromol/day?
    Furthermore; "they" claim that lower lights increase the space on the stem between each leaf, but what about that? And how goes the coloration? Dimming lights energy wise and co2 stress makes a lot of sense...
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Stem elongation is well documented in Plant Biology to the molecular level for aquatic and wetland plants.

    Light plays little role.
    CO2, Ethylene gas exchange, O2..........these play virtually all the major roles.

    See papers from Jackson et al,

    http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/101/2/229

    See page 243, there's no light involvement in that system.

    You can decide if myth and speculation/ outright guessing by aquarist is hard science, but the top researchers are clueless?

    Even if I had no idea on the topic, I'd side with Jackson et al:gw
    This process is really cool and is of intense interest to Plant Biologist.
    Gas diffusion, whether it is CO2, ethylene, O2 etc..........has the same slow diffusion issue when submersed.

    It's a good mechanism to detect and respond to submerse conditions.
    It also can occur in static systems when the O2 drops, or the CO2 drops which reduces O2 production/growth of the plants. CO2 enrichment is fine, but not lots and lots, this is toxic at these upper ranges.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have extremely dense growth with low light and with good color. No leggy stems here, Dutchy can also confirm, as can many who have tested their light, the ADA picture examples I post all have the same light as well.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Great read, thanx!

    And, knowing that each tank is different i am going to ask anyway :p

    Do all your lights switch on at thesame time in the morning at x%, or is that do you use a dimmer of some sort to simulate some sort of 'natural' environment and prevent fish stress?
     
  19. Riba

    Riba Lifetime Charter Member
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    Must be something in the water...

    ;)
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    No, they just switch on and run 8 to 10 hours depending on the tank.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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