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Would someone care to humer me!!

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by Gbark, Mar 13, 2010.

  1. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    Hi,

    Could someone please provide the ppm levels of ferts to add daily.

    E.g.

    KNO3 - Nitrate = 5.58ppm
    KNO3 - Potassium = ?
    etc :)
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I'm not completely sure what you're asking. Do you want daily quantities of fertilizers to use? Raw ppm's per day?

    If you dose 20ppm NO3 from KNO3 a week and about 2-5ppm of PO4 of KH2PO4, you'll end up with about 14-18ppm of K+ last I checked. I add my macros 3 days a week, micros the other 3 on alternating days.
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Clear As The Mississippi

    Hi,

    I am also not clear to me but if Dan’s answer is not what you are looking for… :confused:

    In Potassium nitrate, the Potassium makes up about 37% and the nitrate about 63%.

    If you are getting about 5.58-ppm Nitrate, from Potassium nitrate, you should have about 3.51-ppm Potassium.

    I hope it helps.

    Perhaps if you explained what you are trying to accomplish, we could better help you. :)

    Biollante
     
  4. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I think what i am trying to say is, we always talk about adding 1/4 teaspoon of such a such, and 1/8th of the other etc.

    What ever your tank size the daily dose of each should be:

    KNO3

    Nitrate = 5.58ppm
    Potassium = 3.58ppm

    KH2PO4

    Potassium = 0.57ppm
    Phosphate = 1.38ppm

    CO2

    25-30ppm

    MgSO4

    Magnessium = 1ppm
     
    #4 Gbark, Mar 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2010
  5. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you got those numbers from fertilator, odds are they're accurate.

    I could do all the calculations for you, or I could just show you how based on the math I used when I started out so that you can do it any time you like:

    KH2PO4:

    Potassium: 39.09831 x1 = 39.09831
    Hydrogen: 1.00794 x2 = 2.01588
    Phosphorus: 30.9737622 x1 = 30.9737622
    Oxygen: 15.99943 x4 = 63.99772
    Total Molar Mass of KH2PO4: 136.0856722

    PO4:

    Oxygen: 15.99943 x4 = 63.99772
    Phosphorus: 30.9737622 x1 = 30.9737622
    Total Molar Mass of PO4: 94.9714822g/mol

    For 2 ppm of PO4 in KH2PO4:

    136.0856722/94.9714822*2 = 2.865821803505558ppm KH2PO4

    From there if you want to know the K+ in that dose:
    K+ = 39.09831

    39.09831/136.0856722*2.865821803505558 = 0.8233694809071854ppm of K+

    Keep in mind that I wrote this all before I bothered to round anything. You can always shave this down to a more reasonable number of decimals if it's easier to look at.
     
  6. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I got these figures based on what i dose, haven't heard of fertilator sorry :eek:
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not Too Out-Of-Whack

    Hi,

    Over a seven day dosing cycle I would think them high, not outrageous but certainly the kind of numbers that if I suggested would have people jumping on me as a “Nutrient Type.” :p


    Nitrates of 39-ppm are high side, I run that level plus a little in heavily planted tanks (with critters, 65-ppm non-critter). :)


    Potassium of 29-ppm high in line with what I run with my Tiger Lotus’ (Loti?), but higher than generally necessary. ;)


    Phosphates of ~10-ppm are high unless I am treating GSA or something, nothing terrible. :rolleyes:


    Magnesium of 7-ppm is a little high for most folks run half that, no big deal, I tend to be in that range. :)


    Nothing looks too out-of-whack to me, but then I am the utterly detested “Nutrient Type” your Mother warned you about. :eek:


    I am still curious as to how we are supposed to be humoring you for (about?). Seems more like a statement.

    I do not mind humoring you. :cool:


    Two significant digits are sufficient.



    The Fertilator is at APC http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/

    Biollante
     
  8. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Give them the 411

    HI Gbark,
    On another post your actual amounts of N and PO4 were much higher then you thought.
    Might I suggest you share the tangible amount (tsp, Grams, ML) of fertilizer you add to X amount of water. Then let these guys check your math. You say your adding this or that in ppm but we have no way of knowing other then your word. How did you come up with 5.58ppm NO3?

     
  9. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I took the amount of KNO3 to be added as EI for a 20-40 gallon, that is 1/4 tsp 3x a week.

    so that is 1.25 tsp a week

    I put that in into chucks calculator for my tank 33 gallon

    that made ~37ppm a week


    divide that by 7

    5.28ppm daily dose of NO3


    I read on another forum that the weekly amount should be 20ppm week
     
    #9 Gbark, Jun 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2010
  10. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Typical uptake rates of NO3, at high light and CO2 levels are 1-4ppm per day. PO4 0.2-0.6ppm. per day. I tend to dose 3.9ppm of NO3 every day. It depends on your biomass, lighting, CO2, etc. Dosing more (37ppm/7) is not a problem. If I dose less then 24ppm/6, I start to see some N deficiencies. My goal has been to try and keep the levels of NO3 around 5-10ppm on average after factoring in plant uptake and water changes.

    Reference:
    The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/62-The-Estimative-Index-of-Dosing-or-No-Need-for-Test-Kits?p=217#post217
    old version from 1996-1997 of list of levels and parameters
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2386-old-version-from-1996-1997-of-list-of-levels-and-parameters
    A List of Recommended Levels and Parameters
    By Tom Barr
    http://sfbaaps.org/articles/barr_02.html
    Wet's Stuff Calculator
    http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl
     
    #10 Tug, Jun 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2010
  11. Gbark

    Gbark Guru Class Expert

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    I understand that EI is adding more than enough ferts so that the plants are never without.
    And i know that if i follow the suggested routines laid out by TOM that i can't go far wrong.
    And i know its not an exact science.

    Here is the BUT :D

    If the MAX Weekly uptakes are as follows:
    28ppm NO3
    4.2ppm PO4
    28ppm K

    Tom suggests that you dose as follows for a 10-20 Gallon Tank
    +/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
    +/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
    +/- 1/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
    +/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
    50% weekly water change

    So lets take the 1/8 tsp KNO3 added to a 10 Gallon tank that will add 12.15ppm of NO3 3x week.
    Now if you add 1/8 tsp KNO3 to a 20 Gallon tank you would only be adding 6.07ppm NO3 3xweek.

    As you can see it is recommended that the larger tank should require a leaner dose than the smaller one.

    So thats why i wanted the ppm's as this can be expressed to any size tank.

    I also noticed that TOM suggested a EI solution mix for a 20 Gallon tank as follows:

    60g KNO3
    10g KH2PO4
    25g GH Booster
    mix to 1000 DI water and add 5ml daily

    this would give a weekly NO3 of 17.01ppm thats less than recommended when dry dosing.

    So as its not an exact science,

    Should we just aim to exceed the Max daily uptakes therefore looking for weekly ppm's in the region of:

    to be added either by making solutions or dry dosing:

    NO3 30-35ppm
    PO4 11ppm (high due to the need of the k in the KH2PO4)
    k 30ppm
     
  12. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Have you seen the downloadable Nutri-Calc .exe calculator in quenton's signature? It is called: "Nutri-Calc[v1.9.3 Mar 10/07]: an EI Dosing Calculator & Tank Size Calc" Using your 10g and 20g examples, lets say that your 20g aquarium has 17g of water in it and you want to know the EI amounts to dose based on 17g, it would give it to you. There are quite a few posts about this calculator that tells all the different things that it will do. It is really a neat fert calculator. You can use the nutri-calculator to calculate your dosing régime. Then use APC's fertilator that Biollante mentioned to calculate how many ppm's that dose is. Then you can use Chuck's fert calculator to make your solutions, if you want liquid ferts, that is. Using all three calculators, will clear up a lot of mud that is in that ol' Mississippi.
     
  13. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Too bad my apple wont work with that download. I think this is a great little calculator, "Yet Another Nutrient Calculator". It is one lean, mean calculating machine.
    For the smaller 10 gallon tank it is often recommend that people dose only twice a week.
    Stick to the recommended dose of KH2PO4 (2-3 times a week). I wouldn't add more KH2PO4 then is called for just to increase the amount of K+. This thread explains why, http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7404-Calling-Chemistry-and-Math-Pros?p=52131#post52131
    Add GH booster and that adds K+, or add a little K2SO4, about 3-4ppm a week.

    Where is our other lean, mean calculating machine? I haven't heard from him anywhere for some time now.
     
    #13 Tug, Jul 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2010
  14. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    I would take EI as estimative.
    Since the amount of plants in a tank is also a factor.
    I read now a day, Tom adds 15 PPM of NO3 3x a week.
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7496-Would-you-like-to-see-my-1.000-litres-tank-in-Zoetermeer-The-Netherlands?p=53300#post53300

    If you want to know your tank's exact uptake, I think you
    may have to use test kits, may be once a few months, to check the trend.
     
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