Something that I can't quite wrap my head around - if excess nutrients do not cause algae, why should we "reset" the water with a water change? Why not just regularly clean out the filter and top off the evaporated water? I have to be missing something important here, the only thing I can think of to reset is NH4. Everything else would stay available to the plants, right?
Why reset water with water changes?
- Thread starter gforster
- Start date
Hi,
Because eventually the build ups of the macros may affect the fish and critters.....a water change will alleviate this....
Be careful of the word 'excess' in terms of nutrients. Plants can only consume so much assuming correct light, co2, and many other factors.
Because eventually the build ups of the macros may affect the fish and critters.....a water change will alleviate this....
Be careful of the word 'excess' in terms of nutrients. Plants can only consume so much assuming correct light, co2, and many other factors.
What Gerry Said And…
Hi,
In addition to what Gerry said…
We also do large water changes to control many of the products of rapid growth… While most plants and critters are not affected by salts (there are limits), particularly that accumulate over time, most critters, many plants and our systems are harmed or overwhelmed by the organic compounds.
All of these “rules” are to cover the widest possible range of situations, in my experience the Estimative Index is weighted toward the “high light,” difficult plant and sensitive critter crowd.
The large water changes allow us to avoid many management issues.
Biollante
Hi,
In addition to what Gerry said…
We also do large water changes to control many of the products of rapid growth… While most plants and critters are not affected by salts (there are limits), particularly that accumulate over time, most critters, many plants and our systems are harmed or overwhelmed by the organic compounds.
All of these “rules” are to cover the widest possible range of situations, in my experience the Estimative Index is weighted toward the “high light,” difficult plant and sensitive critter crowd.
The large water changes allow us to avoid many management issues.
Biollante
Gerryd;71298 said:
Is that per day, per week, per month, per hour? I suppose the answer to that is, "yes." But, let's say I dose 7 times as much as the plants can use in a day - will it all be used in one week? If so, do I need to reset the water?
I suppose that would take some extensive testing to see how much each plant could completely use in a set time period. Of course, this would depend on each particular tank setup. Just because they can, doesn't mean they will.
I guess I'm just looking for a lazy excuse to not have to do as many water changes - I have to do the bucket brigade method in my situation. A 50% change on a 75 gallon tank gets a bit tiring - that's 75 gallons of water I have to move 5 gallons at a time. More so for those who have larger tanks.
Hi,
Do yourself a favor and attach some flex hose to a small submersible pump. Drop the pump in the tank and let the water drain out a window or the bathtub or sink. That is an easy way to drain water.
Then simply fill from the tap (I use more flex and some hardware to connect to the tap) and fill. Just use Prime or similar in between!
Plants consume at different rates at different times. I don't think the amount of uptake is well understood or measured for aquatic species....
Assuming you KNEW the rate uptake and provided a week's worth once a week, plant growth and bio-mass, c02, or light can affect the rate DURING the same week.
I am unsure how w/o expensive equipment you could ever figure this out.
Is why EI is an estimative index and can be varied by need.
If you don't want water changes, go no c02, less light, and a decent substrate. Fish will provide most of the ferts and less frequent water changes will help with c02 stability.
That said, IMO ALL fish like a water change....
Do yourself a favor and attach some flex hose to a small submersible pump. Drop the pump in the tank and let the water drain out a window or the bathtub or sink. That is an easy way to drain water.
Then simply fill from the tap (I use more flex and some hardware to connect to the tap) and fill. Just use Prime or similar in between!
Plants consume at different rates at different times. I don't think the amount of uptake is well understood or measured for aquatic species....
Assuming you KNEW the rate uptake and provided a week's worth once a week, plant growth and bio-mass, c02, or light can affect the rate DURING the same week.
I am unsure how w/o expensive equipment you could ever figure this out.
Is why EI is an estimative index and can be varied by need.
If you don't want water changes, go no c02, less light, and a decent substrate. Fish will provide most of the ferts and less frequent water changes will help with c02 stability.
That said, IMO ALL fish like a water change....
gforster;71300 said:
Common sense concern, and a common sense solution for the buckets:
Hangs on my tank, drains anywhere I wish..........., stops once it gets to the bottom..........
I take the other end and attach to the shower head, set water temp same as tank water, add dechlorinator..........I'm done. I clean tank, filters, glass, feed fish anything else........I never touch a bucket.
I like a nice clean tank.......and fish love big water changes.
I do not think one can over do water changes, even if they do not add any ferts or have plants.
But........the flip side is you can reduce the labor here as well and dose at an upper bound, then slowly reduce till you hit a negatuive response, then bumpo back up to the last highest dosing, that's your critical point and then less water changes, less dosing etc can be done.
This way you know what non limiting growth looks like and can focus on light an dCO2.
Since this is about labor and perhaps about sustainable methods..........using less light =>>> Less CO2 demand(makes this easier) => less nutrient uptake.
So now you have more wiggle room for CO2 and dosing.
So if you run lean etc or go too high, there's much less risk.
Let's keep going with this line of thinking..........let's remove CO2, since CO2 gas addition is the no#1 lethal killer of fish in planted tanks, let's remove that risk and go whole hog here, now we have non CO2 methods, which.......do not require much dosing and in some cases none other than fish food, which is still dosing.........
No one method will be all things to all people and meet all goals we may have, that's not practical or common sense based.
A better over all understanding about addressing the factors of how a plant grows holistically, light, CO2 and nutrients.........now we have a good model to optimize our laziness and time demands to the most appropriate method for our goal.
Perhaps you want one tank to garden a lot, and the rest non CO2 low Key. 2 different methods work well in that case.
I do it.
I have 3 methods... 4 if you include the reef seagrass system.
No one trick pony here, nor would I ever try and argue one method is all things to all people and can meet every goal, that's frigging nuts.
See "non CO2 methods", see "Dry start method", see "EI", see "Hybrid methods", see "EI myths".
Most of the issues you ponder I think can be placated there further.
I suggest using both locations for ferts also, sediment + water column.
More wiggle room.
gforster;71300 said:
I would not do this either myself
But making the water change easier is always a good idea(Engineer's view).
You can avoid by measuring the ppm's and dosing accordingly also, but then you trade one chore for another.
It's also technically tougher to sell folks on actually doing that and training them.
Believe me, I have tried and tried, EI was a response to that failure and getting folks to test well, most just will simply not test. Like many who wish to avoid water changes, except getting them to test was even worst, not amount of nagging worked on most folks.
These are human issues, not so much the methods themselves.
Unfortunately, in my situation my tank is in my office. The closest sink is over 100 yards away and the faucet does not have any way to attach a hose. I suppose I could get at least the draining taken care of.
In theory, would it ever be possible to have the plants use all of the nutrients in the tank (including fish waste, etc.)? If so, what would the water change accomplish? Or to ask it another way - aside from resetting the nutrient levels in the tank, what does a water change accomplish? Sure, we know it is good for the fish, but why (assuming the impractical - acceptable and sustainable levels of nutrients)?
In theory, would it ever be possible to have the plants use all of the nutrients in the tank (including fish waste, etc.)? If so, what would the water change accomplish? Or to ask it another way - aside from resetting the nutrient levels in the tank, what does a water change accomplish? Sure, we know it is good for the fish, but why (assuming the impractical - acceptable and sustainable levels of nutrients)?
I Have Some DIY Cold Fusion Plans I'd Like To Sell You--Cheap!
Hi,
Once upon a time in the millennium gone by, like a thousand years ago, people thought you could achieve the “perfect balance” of animal and plant life in an aquarium. Then again people thought perpetual motion and cold fusion, that 5 pounds of sugar in an aquarium hooked up to a car battery and you could power the office building in perpetuity. :gw
[video=youtube;YJpATSIGBEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJpATSIGBEs[/video]
Should you actually be interested in trying to keep the tank without the water changes… I hate myself for what I am about to say…
Tell me in detail what you have, what you would like to have and as long as you are not a wienie, I can tell you how to accomplish it, thinking more in pond terms than aquarium, then I can tell you how it can be done without traditional water changes.
Biollante
Hi,
Once upon a time in the millennium gone by, like a thousand years ago, people thought you could achieve the “perfect balance” of animal and plant life in an aquarium. Then again people thought perpetual motion and cold fusion, that 5 pounds of sugar in an aquarium hooked up to a car battery and you could power the office building in perpetuity. :gw
[video=youtube;YJpATSIGBEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJpATSIGBEs[/video]
Should you actually be interested in trying to keep the tank without the water changes… I hate myself for what I am about to say…
Tell me in detail what you have, what you would like to have and as long as you are not a wienie, I can tell you how to accomplish it, thinking more in pond terms than aquarium, then I can tell you how it can be done without traditional water changes.
Biollante
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