Why Doesn't EI Induce Algae?

[Tug]

All,
I would think that an easy test would be to take a fishless tank with all things being equal, EI, CO2, light, good water circulation and dose NH4. But other then finding a relationship or not, we have little use for it and we are correct to point out the usual suspects, dirty filters, CO2, instability in general, low EI doses and poor water flow. Are there other things these catalysts have in common? NH4 would seam to be one.

 

[Tom Barr]

Gerryd,

I personally agree with you on NH4 having some relationship with algae. If it didn't, why would DSM starts be so much more helpful? My response to your first post wasn't meant to shoot that down if that's how it came across. I was only asking if it was the cause, or a cause.

I think this might be said for diatoms and GW, not many others though.
DMS is helpful for many reasons:
The lack of water for algae to grow in the first place while the plants grow roots.
Far more biomass established and plants dominating the system.

Timing differences in the start up, but you can induce the same species of algae if you wish, later.

I think none of this is personal between folks here, it's the idea we are critiqing, not you in the least.
On the web, typing, it sometimes comes across that way, but I do not think this is the case here or in many cases.
We are all questioning what we really know and can say, so it's just some brain storming. Nothing personal.

Or put another way, "arguing about we do not know and to the extent of our lack of knolwedge".

WTF???
hehe

So it seems odd.

Just think about severla plant hobbyists at an open house wondering why or why not a tank has algae, what is their attitudes there?
Nowhere near as they come off on the web.

So do not be scared of it here, ask away.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Tom Barr]

All,
I would think that an easy test would be to take a fishless tank with all things being equal, EI, CO2, light, good water circulation and dose NH4. But other then finding a relationship or not, we have little use for it and we are correct to point out the usual suspects, dirty filters, CO2, instability in general, low EI doses and poor water flow. Are there other things these catalysts have in common? NH4 would seam to be one.

And what else can you think of???

I'm not going to offer any answers and see what all you folks can brainstorm.
Be as specific as you can.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Tug]

O2, maybe evacuated enzymes from decaying and constipated plants.

severe back up of incoming light energy => biochemical reactions begin to back up=> these expose the enzymes more and more to ROS's which attack and destroy the enzymes required for photosynthesis.

 

[Philosophos]

I'm not going to offer any answers and see what all you folks can brainstorm.
Be as specific as you can.

The cuticle bit from the other thread is interesting. Feeding the plant as much as it can take is definitely part of things, given that any ability a plant has to fight off algae would reduce the surface area that algae can grow on. I can't count the number of times I've had a bump in CO2, BBA takes a foothold on some hardscape, but only stays on the hardscape. I've got one rock that's headed towards being a big ball of BBA, but it hasn't gotten on any of the plants. This seems to be common experience when I've asked others. We also don't tend to lose our heads over algae on hardscape or glass unless it's hard to remove.

I'm wondering what else we're supporting in the plant. Cuticles and what I've stated in the past about leaf/wax localized allelopathy aside, how else does supporting the plant at optimal levels help to reduce algae?

I found this site that's making me wonder how much of plant immunology applies to algae and SAM's: http://www6.ufrgs.br/favet/imunovet/molecular_immunology/plantimmune.html

An adaptable immune system really kicks open a world of questions. I also wonder about the proteins I find on the surface of the tank; they never match up with my bioload or feeding. Sometimes they get much worse a day or two after a heavy trim and WC, even if I've reduced feeding.

I think I'm going to spend some time reading on the subject of antigens in plants.

 

[csmith]

What causes certain species to germinate?
What are algae "seeds/spores" capable of?

What if it's just as simple as self preservation?

A friend of mine that does saltwater tanks (it's baffling what reef tanks and planted tanks have in common) was telling me about aiptasia anemones. Apparently it's common for them to hitchhike attached to live rock. They're a pest because they stress coral and can harm fish. They're actually a relative of hydra, just larger, to put it into perspective for us.

Similarities:
1.) They're opportunistic. You'd never know they're around until conditions are just right, or wrong, depending on how you look at it.
2.) Once they've begun to populate a tank they can spread quickly when no barriers are presented to keep the population in check.
3.) They can grow/populate quite a bit faster than other organisms based on some symbiotic relationship they have with another organism that allows them an accelerated rate of photosynthesis. (The symbiotic portion isn't a similarity, just showing why they grow faster)

The final part of this is that when they're disturbed, either through physical removal or predation, they can and usually do release tiny pieces of themselves that float freely away looking for a suitable surface to attach to. A self preservation mechanism of sorts. Where do you end up? Right back at step one, an organism waiting for the perfect moment to start the process over again.

What if algae were to react in the same way? What we see as scraping glass, spot treating hardscape, etc., these organisms use as a "final stand" to release spores/seeds/whatever it is that they release. With this, you're right back at step one, a good looking tank with free flowing algae waiting for it's opportunity to restart the process.

This is all an assumption of course, but the similarities stood out.

 

[Philosophos]

Opportunism is definitely something discussed with germination signaling; Tom brought it up a while back. I think that's another part of algae that most of us have just about zero understanding of, including myself. An idiots introduction to algae would be handy.

Most of us ignore algae a whole lot. When you've got a method that works, it isn't a problem. For the average person if it isn't an issue it's not worth thinking about. For those with an interest in creating their own methods though, an understanding of algae and everything else most people start taking for granted is required reading.

 

[Biollante]

Water Quality?

Hi,

If I understand cuticles (function) is (primarily) to prevent water loss that is why aquatic macrophytes have thin or no cuticle hydrophytes have no need of a cuticle. The lack of cuticles (or very thin) is the reason aquatic plants have a much easier time absorbing nutrients through their leaves.

I tend to discount the role of antigens or allelopathy in general, though I accept a certain amount of signaling, this likely simply suggests I have little knowledge of the subject.

Without wondering too far into forbidden territory, I have noticed a correlation (before anyone else says it, correlation is not causation) that systems with high ORP values tend to have the least algae, for that matter all kinds of other so-called pests. I have observed this correlation with many primitive plants do not do as well in high ORP environments.

I hate to mention a bit of messing about with Hydrogen peroxide and Sodium percarbonate over the past couple of months seems to have confirmed the correlation with an odd twist. I thought about starting a thread, I do not know that anyone would be interested and certainly, cries of no falsifiable hypothesis would ring out. It is interesting to me and oddly dovetails with this topic.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

Of Marine & Freshwater Tanks

Hi,

While you are correct there are many similarities between marine, particularly reef tanks and planted tanks there are a number of significant differences.

One of those differences is that all (practically)marine plants are alga.

Animals not plants wage the allelopathic battles. Many of the marine animals that affix themselves to rocks and each other are armed with some of the deadliest biological and chemical weapons known.

Some of these animals when threatened or killed are capable of wiping out even large aquaria in a matter of hours. There is no aquatic plant equivalent I am aware of and certainly not in the common trade.

The closest bit is the part regarding the spores, alga have the ability to go dormant, spores and such can last many years waiting for the right conditions to come about. Alga and many plants including myself simply reproduce exact copies when torn-up or blown-up.

What cause the spores or seeds to germinate is far more interesting. In many northern (non-tropical) lakes and rivers there seems to be a strong correlation to the length of days, water temperature and so-forth. I have noted a correlation to higher ORP values and system stability in a range that makes the desired plant happy.

It is why I think most shortcuts to kill alga, or cyanobacteria, or most pests are shortsighted, foolish and tend to cause more systemic damage that simply leaves the “system” more vulnerable than ever.

Biollante

What if it's just as simple as self preservation?

A friend of mine that does saltwater tanks (it's baffling what reef tanks and planted tanks have in common) was telling me about aiptasia anemones. Apparently it's common for them to hitchhike attached to live rock. They're a pest because they stress coral and can harm fish. They're actually a relative of hydra, just larger, to put it into perspective for us.

Similarities:
1.) They're opportunistic. You'd never know they're around until conditions are just right, or wrong, depending on how you look at it.
2.) Once they've begun to populate a tank they can spread quickly when no barriers are presented to keep the population in check.
3.) They can grow/populate quite a bit faster than other organisms based on some symbiotic relationship they have with another organism that allows them an accelerated rate of photosynthesis. (The symbiotic portion isn't a similarity, just showing why they grow faster)

The final part of this is that when they're disturbed, either through physical removal or predation, they can and usually do release tiny pieces of themselves that float freely away looking for a suitable surface to attach to. A self preservation mechanism of sorts. Where do you end up? Right back at step one, an organism waiting for the perfect moment to start the process over again.

What if algae were to react in the same way? What we see as scraping glass, spot treating hardscape, etc., these organisms use as a "final stand" to release spores/seeds/whatever it is that they release. With this, you're right back at step one, a good looking tank with free flowing algae waiting for it's opportunity to restart the process.

This is all an assumption of course, but the similarities stood out.

 

[Philosophos]

If I understand cuticles (function) is (primarily) to prevent water loss that is why aquatic macrophytes have thin or no cuticle hydrophytes have no need of a cuticle. The lack of cuticles (or very thin) is the reason aquatic plants have a much easier time absorbing nutrients through their leaves.

The cuticle thins out, but in some cases remains and continues to grow. The question is how much and how effective they remain. I haven't found much for research on the subject, so it's largely an unanswered question for me.

As for allelopathic compounds, there again very little information about retention in the cuticle. Still, every time I pull a piece of L. aromatica out of the water I wonder how many other phenols go with the smell. The stuff is so pungent that they use it as a spice in Thailand.

Perhaps I'm mostly asking because there is no answer yet. When I see hardscape coated in algae, but nothing on the nearby plants, I start to wonder why. The plants don't grow fast enough to cover over the progress of the algae and compete for light; entire tufts of BBA appear overnight on the rocks and wood, but not on the plants. I'm left to conclude that there are other things being contributed by the plant that keeps algae away from them. Why not start with what we already have a little knowledge of?

 

[Tom Barr]

Yea, but L aromatica and dozesn of other so called allelopathic plants still get algae for the same darn reasons plants that do not have them do
If the effect occurs, it's very subtle in natural planted communities.

Why for example, do we not discuss plant- plant allelopathy?
After all, there's more competition between plants, than plants and algae.

Curiously silent when I bring that issue up.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Philosophos]

As I've said before, I don't see much evidence for column wide allelopathy. Even Diana isn't talking about it much anymore. We've read the tropica/Pedersen article, seen the exceptions.

I don't know if aromatica is any more or less sensitive. Prone to the same does not mean equally susceptible. I haven't looked well enough to be sure whether it matters or not.

I'd think plant-plant wouldn't be so effective with the same compounds as a matter of every layer of protection that goes along with a plant being vascular. It seems to work well enough that we can use glutaraldehyde with our stems, cry about the loss of mosses, and be pleased with the dead BBA.

What about on the plant at the leaf though? What prevents algae from forming there? How much of a roll does the cuticle play? What happens when there isn't one? Could AC's build up under where the algae attaches its self as they are released from the stoma? There's so much I don't know about these things that I can't just discount it yet.

 

[Biollante]

Just Curious

Hi Dan,

We use L. aromatic here as well. I am not saying there are no defense mechanisms at work I am only saying any have been shown to be that overwhelming or effective.

I am familiar with Black Walnut trees and what would and would not grow around them; unfortunately, Poison Ivy is not adversely affected.

A paper I found a while back that explains it in language I can almost understand. Allelopathic Monoterpenes Interfere with Arabidopsis thaliana Cuticular Waxes and Enhance Transpiration, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634133/pdf/psb0204_0231.pdf.

It does not deal with aquatic plants and I do believe the lack of cuticle requirements for aquatic plants makes a serious difference.

Can you expand on your conclusion “that there are other things being contributed by the plant that keeps algae away from them.” Could it be that an uninhabited space would be easier to inhabit than an inhabited one?

Biollante

 

[DaBub]

Would we tend find similar periphyton biomass in our aquariums as were found in the Florida lakes?

Do the periphyton communities provide hiding places for BGA and nasty things waiting for the right condition? Low CO2 triggering ROS, provide energy and nutrients?

 

[Philosophos]

Bio,

The cuticles are only reduced in most cases, not eliminated, as far as I know. I haven't found much good data quantifying it though.

When I say other things, I really do mean that plants appear to have something. Staurogyne or HC pushing on to hardscape covered in algae doesn't seem to get it, while the next peice of hardscape a few inches away still does. This sort of thing is something I've observed enough that I would find it hard to believe that there isn't something unique to plants that helps them cope with algae. I'm not sure what it is, I'm not sure how it works, I just can't find anything more probable. I realize it may not be the complete answer behind algae control either, but it appears plain enough that I have a hard time ignoring it. I know that's a lot of generalziation, but nothing seems to contradict it that I've seen and just about nobody seems to be looking in that direction with regards to SAM's.

 

[Biollante]

Primitive vs. Modern

Hi Dan,

I have seen the same thing you have; I guess I put it off to advantage competition of modern plants defeating the primitive plant/animal in favorable conditions.

Aside from some marine animals the only place I can say with some certainty that I have witnessed allelopathy is a stand of Black Walnut trees where as a young potted plant I grew up (?). All around the trees blueberry bushes grew and then dwindled down to nothing; grasses didn’t grow particularly well under the trees. After heavy rains the bushes would encroach as it dried out they would retreat.

Of course, the Juglone exudes from all parts of the walnut tree, but principally the roots. I guess if I were to bet on the allelopathy of aquatic plants I would bet on the root-structure as the principal delivery mechanism.

I just cannot see the cuticles playing that big of a role, partly since they are reduced or non-existent in aquatic plants. Perhaps in the cutin as Tom Barr has said, I just do not see how it could be concentrated enough to overcome the dilution and not have been noticed to study.

These are my basic links:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=ba48f8985fb3673883bb9114714f9444
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a727073404&db=all
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bk-1995-0582.ch001
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2483447
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634133/

I have some more around here, I reorganized, now I am so organized I cannot find half the stuff…

Biollante

 

[Philosophos]

That's what I don't get; higher plants shouldn't out-compete. Algae as a whole make use of far broader nutrient/light conditions than plants; they're just more susceptible to damage. Once you see things that you can't explain with germination signaling, it's time to look for more answers.

Allelopathy is one attempt to answer the question. Cuticles are another. Neither has any good evidence for them and there's some shaky foundations, so I'm looking to a combination or the existence of other variables.

Growing up in BC, allelopathy was common... pine trees and some other conifers killed everyone's grass if they didn't rake up the needles. Terpenoids all over. Some of the mushrooms seemed to be that way as well, easily beyond mycelium sucking up all the nutrients. Still, none of it seems to apply when the plant hits the water. EW and algae-stoma contact is the only place I see hope for it now.

Anyhow, nice links. Some I had, some I didn't. I'll bookmark them all and give a read later on; I'm already well past the time I should've spent posting on the UV sterilizer stuff earlier.