What's this deficiency?

Kyalgae

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Different tank, low tech, just wondering if it's low nitrates.


I dosed more GH booster and iron, and the plants responded by growing, but there's something new now.


fZ2JUF1.jpg
 

rajkm

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Since it's lower leafs, it has to be a mobile nutrient like nitrate or phosphate. However it's not that easy sometimes. Other deficiencies can also add up.
 

Kyalgae

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Yes, but I have been dosing taxes and iron, but I have been very lean on the nitrates and phosphates, I guess old habits are hard to break when I'm dealing with a non CO2 tank. Thanks for the tip.
 
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fablau

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Kyalgae said:
Yes, but I have been dosing taxes and iron, but I have been very lean on the nitrates and phosphates, I guess old habits are hard to break when I'm dealing with a non CO2 tank. Thanks for the tip.

What's your current dosing regime? What's your substrate? That could be different factors, toxicity also...
 

Kyalgae

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fablau It's aquasoil over a year old I dose 1ppm NO3 (apparently some of aquavitro synthesis is urea according to the handy calculator) 0.13ppm PO4, and 0.1 Fe, I throw in a couple scoops of GH booster which raises the GH an extra degree. There is KH and GH already present in the tap. I do this once every one or two weeks (or extreme cases 4 weeks) when I do a 30% water change.


Its a low light excel tank. I just do the maintenance, I think the fish get fed very well judging by their fat bellies. There are 15 cardinal tetras, 2 powder blue gourami, 5 stupid guppies, and 6 female and 2 male amanos.


I bumped the NO3 to 1.69ppm and 0.22ppm PO4 this past Saturday.


This tank has almost no algae, a small amount of brush algae on the wood. Compared to my CO2 tank, it just chugs along, the anubias are healthier in this tank than in my EI 20 gallon. I'm pretty sure the tank is doing this out of spite.


The crpypts grow like no tomorrow, faster than in my EI tank, which I found irritating. Rotala is growing painfully slow ever since I hacked it down, and the substrate ran out of gas.
 

burr740

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Looks like both old and new growth is affected to me, also noticing a pinhole or two with a pale outline, which is classic K symptom. Plants typically only display one deficiency at a time (except under extreme circumstances, which doesnt seem to be the case here since other plants are thriving)


So...when you see multiple symptoms at the same time, it's usually a CO2 deficiency. Try upping the excel by 50% or even double it. Start with small increases to make sure the amanos wont have a problem. If they are OK now I doubt they will mind. At least that's been my experience dosing 2-3x the recommended daily dose.


You're dosing the Excel daily, right? That's important since it's only active for 12-24 hours.


Edit: Increasing macros would be a good idea as well. Those amounts are pretty low. I'd dose that 2x week at least.


Leave the Fe where it's at, that should be plenty. But it would be better to cut it in half and dose 2x week instead of once. Fe doesnt remain available to plants for more than a few days, or less depending on what type you're using.
 
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fablau

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I agree with Burr that macros need to be increased, those yellow leaves could easily be a light N deficiency considering AQ is over 1 year old. More N in the form of KNO3 won't hurt. If you then see GSA appearing on your glass, your P also will need to be increased a little. Using AQ I would exclude any possible toxicity coming from traces, but as Burr said, I would dose twice a week Fe and related traces (half dose of course).


As for Excel, just be careful with some sensitive plants if you have any (Valinserias at the top...)
 

Kyalgae

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burr740 fablau I don't add excel to the tank myself, my friends do that, I just tell them how much per day. I floated the idea of them dosing other things throughout the week and they seemed ok with it. Thanks for the input, appreciate it. I'll get them dosing iron one day and macros another. I have liquid ferts that I bought way before I came to this site so I'm going to use up all the aquavitro stuff before I buy dry ferts for them. I'll probably forgo the traces for now, I have a huge bottle of Flourish comprehensive, but it needs to be refrigerated and I can't see them messing around with that. I'll let you know how it goes.


edit: I also dose 1.61ppm of K via flourish potassium, I shall increase this as well.
 
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Julia Adkins

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As others have pointed out, this looks like a macro nutrient or structural nutrient to me. What GH Booster are you using? If you are using Barrs GH Booster you are adding plenty of calcium (Ca+) and potassium (K+). My next step would be the nitrates and a small amount of phosphates. Don't overdo the phosphates as they have a tendency to accumulate. Make sure you are not adding so much GH Booster that you are skewing the pH to much toward the alkaline side that the plants are unable to make use of the other nutrients you are giving them. Iron is a trace element and small amounts will do the job unless you have so many red leafed plants that it is being all used up. Excel is only carbon. Pouring more of something you are already adding will only drive the deficiency harder toward nothing.
 

Kyalgae

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Julia Adkins said:
As others have pointed out, this looks like a macro nutrient or structural nutrient to me. What GH Booster are you using? If you are using Barrs GH Booster you are adding plenty of calcium (Ca+) and potassium (K+). My next step would be the nitrates and a small amount of phosphates. Don't overdo the phosphates as they have a tendency to accumulate. Make sure you are not adding so much GH Booster that you are skewing the pH to much toward the alkaline side that the plants are unable to make use of the other nutrients you are giving them. Iron is a trace element and small amounts will do the job unless you have so many red leafed plants that it is being all used up. Excel is only carbon. Pouring more of something you are already adding will only drive the deficiency harder toward nothing.

I use http://www.saltyshrimp.de/english/beesalt_bee_shrimp_mineral_gh_plus.html apparently it only raises KH by 0.06 degrees for every 1 degree of GH. My goal is to find a balance so the plants are a bit more healthy, it's probably a macro shortage.
 

Tom Barr

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I add no Gh booster to the garage tanks that have older ADA AS, they do fine.


No K+, not much of anything.


light, CO2 and soil.


So mostly likely a CO2, something I've long nagged about and been dismissed many many times, only to have folks later, come to the similar conclusion.


Crypts and Anubias do tend to do better under this tank's routine, because they are well adapted to low light and harsher conditions.


The others are fast growing weeds.


But daily consistent Excel will fix this up pretty well.


You can add a little bit of ferts if you want, do a weekly water changes or once every 2 weeks etc.
 

Kyalgae

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Tom Barr said:
I add no Gh booster to the garage tanks that have older ADA AS, they do fine.
No K+, not much of anything.


light, CO2 and soil.


So mostly likely a CO2, something I've long nagged about and been dismissed many many times, only to have folks later, come to the similar conclusion.


Crypts and Anubias do tend to do better under this tank's routine, because they are well adapted to low light and harsher conditions.


The others are fast growing weeds.


But daily consistent Excel will fix this up pretty well.


You can add a little bit of ferts if you want, do a weekly water changes or once every 2 weeks etc.

I don't have any budget for CO2 on this tank, it's not mine. Opening the can of worms that is co2 is something I want with a tank that I'm not around much. I can ask them about their excel dosing, but from what I've heard they do it everyday, but who knows. Personally I'm 90% happy with the tank, the only thing I wish it had was some kind of slow growing thin background plant, does a plant like this exist? In the same vein as a crypt or anubias but grows tall, sort of thin and tall, maybe reminds people of the Rotala?
 

burr740

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Excel is the CO2 supplement. Its not the same thing but that is it's purpose, which is why I suggested increasing the dosage above. I believe that is what Tom was alluding to, heavy, consistent Excel dosing to make up the CO2 deficit.
 

Kyalgae

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I said I would update this. I had them increase excel dosing a few mL, I have them dose a bit of iron every day, and I had them do a dose of fertilizers during the week when I am not there. The Rotala is growing again, which is nice because prior to the aquasoil running out it was not doing well at all.


dm7VTpN.jpg



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The staurogyne seems to have gotten taller and has rounder leaves now. Overall I would say things are better.
 

Kyalgae

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I can take one for you this week, Crypts make up a large portion of this tank now. Here's an old picture, when the aquasoil was still nutrient rich. Excel dosing has pretty much been the same over the life of the tank, what the bottle recomended (besides increasing it recently, so it's interesting to see how the slow reduction in nutrients have affected it over time.


March 2016


WKpJqvE.jpg
 

Kyalgae

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fablau That was a long delay but growth is coming in better ever since our change. Getting my friends to fertilize one day, and I do iron and increased excel everyday.


GooYJJR_d.jpg
 

fablau

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Sounds good Kyalgae! By looking at your tank, I see plants doing better. Keep it up!


One suggestion: if you have persistent algae issues, you should consider to add more plants, I see your tank very sparsely planted. More plants could help on that.