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whats the deal with nesaea pedicellata?

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Species' started by samh, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Hey guys,

    Just trying to grow nesaea pedicellata and ammania gracilis as well. I'm having a bit of hit and miss with them.

    Tank specs are
    130g - 48 x 24 x 28 deep
    3x 54w hot5's w reflectors at 32" from substrate 2x gieseman midday 1 gieseman aquaflora.

    Up aquasoil
    pressurised co2 - rio 1100 needle wheel, sera 1000 reactor
    flow approx 10x volume
    EI dosing 3x week

    1 3/4 teaspoons of kno3
    3/4 teaspoon trace csm+b
    3/4 teaspoon kh2po4

    2 tablespoons equilibrium at water change 50%
    1 tablespoon khco3 potassium bicarbinate
    -kh4
    -gh4-6 i think... i don't trust the cheap test kits

    All plants are growing quite nicely no obvious signs of deficiency except for ammania gracilis and nesaea pedicellata which have small crinkled red new growth.
    At first i thought co2,co2,co2 and more co2, I've got my co2 running all day at a constant level with the ph controller only being used for monitoring purposes. anything i should try different? I've changed the flow and increased the bubble rate slowly. I'm just out of ideas and thought theres probably something i'm missing.

    PS. Stems that are shaded seem to have less colour but don't have deformed growth

    Sam
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    CO2 Is The Likely Culprit... Sorry...


    Hi Sam,


    Just to be clear are the dosing rates you list three times a week?


    I am not familiar with Nesaea pedicellata, I will have to look it up. Perhaps you know is this plant seasonally submersed?

    I keep African Green Hygro, Ammania gracilis likes nutrients, loves iron, it is quite demanding on the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] side, stable CO[SUB]2[/SUB] and good light.


    How sure are you of your dissolved CO[SUB]2[/SUB]?

    Biollante

     
  3. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    I am using a sera 1000 reactor on a 1200l/h pump at one end and at the other end i have the rio 1100 needlewheel. i have a drop checker with 4dkh solution which is slightly yellow at lights on.
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Nothing But Questions

    Hi Sam,

    Have you tried moving the drop checker around? Or multiple drop checkers?
    :confused: Even ugly temporary ones can help.

    About the dosing you listed; are those the three-times-a-week or the weekly cumulative amounts you have listed?
    :confused:

    Biollante
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'd still focus on CO2, A gracilius is a weed with good CO2, even without soil...........I've had it get very large and nice with less.

    Even in hard tap, or soft...........
     
  6. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks guys,

    I just replaced a nano 2000l/hr wavemaker with a 3000l/hr which is sending the co2 mist around more and i gained better surface agitation which meant i was able to drop the ph controller down .07. which i'm hoping will make a large difference. Do these plants (ie nesaea pedicellata and ammania gracilis) stunt when re-positioned or put into a new tank? the A. Gracilis when it stunts automatically sends some branches which seem to grow well under the same conditions.

    I've been setting the co2 to turn on 2hrs before lights on so the ph is within .10 of its target when i wake up, i then adjust the bubble rate so it then takes the rest of the day to go that last .10. Testing to see if this will improve everything. So far it's been hard to tell if theres been any big change after 2 weeks of doing this.

    Are there any more this i should consider with the co2?
     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Am Curious (Green)


    Hi Sam,


    I know it never seem right, but this appears to be an absolutely classic case of CO[SUB]2[/SUB], probably levels as well as stability.:gw


    I am not a fan of misting (CO[SUB]2[/SUB]) so it would probably be better if others advised you.:cool:



    Still I am curious about the dosing.:confused:



    Biollante

     
  8. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Yeah there being dosed three times a week
     
  9. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    How do I get higher co2 levels now? I hate plants :)
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Tend To Be A Little Slow... Everyone Says I Am "Special"

    Hi Sam,

    Are the amounts you listed, weekly totals?
    :confused:

    Or are they what you dose each time, three times a week?
    :confused:

    Biollante
     
  11. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    There what I dose at a time 3 x a week.

    In regards to co2 where would you guys go next knowing my set up as listed on the first post. I'm lost as to go with this. I've gone from reactors to needlewheels to controllers then off controllers increased flow changed pumps increase surface movement.....
    I can't increase bubble rate or drop the ph in the ph controller or the fish will stress. I have had drop checkers all over the tank and they've always been yellow.

    What to change?......
     
  12. chopsticks

    chopsticks Prolific Poster

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    Less light maybe? less light less CO2 demand (and less $$ on the electricity bill).
     
  13. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    I am there as well for the last 5 years.

    But..... very maybe I am getting there.

    Just my 2 cents:

    -CO2 deficiency: yes. very likely. but not always.
    -a toxicity: big BS.
    -a deficiency: yes. very likely.
    -which deficiency? no answer. just add more ferts.

    greets,

    yme
     
  14. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks guys,
    I used to use less light but i like 3 because it doesn't seem too strong yet i get more coverage(width) with 3, 2 i have dark patches behind the back stems
    i'm thinking i'll just add a reactor on every flow line in and throw the co2 down it i'm now running 2 1000 reactors and a mist from rio 1100.

    [​IMG]

    ***please ignore the background it's on old towel****
     
  15. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Going back to my original question, Where to go next in improving my co2 in both stability and levels? I'm going crazy:)

    I want enough light to give me semi decent colouration in red plants like ammania gracilis and ludwigia gladulosa.

    I'm asking myself what would Tom do.........
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Tiny Bubbles In My Tank Are Such A Waste... La...Dee...Da


    Hi Sam,

    I will leave the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] to others[SUP]1[/SUP]… I do think that your issue is CO[SUB]2[/SUB], weather delivery, distribution or both.:confused:


    I do not know what your tap water situation is, based on your original post I think you can cut back on KNO[SUB]3[/SUB] and KH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB], possibly CSM+B and add Calcium, Magnesium and possibly iron maybe even a hint of Boron.:)


    My recommendation:
    1.5 teaspoon of KNO[SUB]3[/SUB], three times a week.
    .25 teaspoon of KH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB] three times a week.
    3 or 4 teaspoons of CaCl[SUB]2[/SUB].2H[SUB]2[/SUB]O or CaCl[SUB]2[/SUB].6H[SUB]2[/SUB]O or (CaSO[SUB]4[/SUB])[SUB]2 [/SUB]three times a week.
    1 teaspoon of Epsom salts three times a week.
    .5 teaspoon of CSM+B three times a week
    .25 teaspoon 10% iron three times a week


    If choose to continue using Seachem Equilibrium[SUP]2[/SUP], I would recommend discontinuing the KH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB] an adding 3 or 4 milliliters of Fleet Enemas three times a week.



    It is unlikely, but possible your plants problems are structural, the above dosing plan should eliminate that possibility.:gw



    Biollante
    [SUP]1[/SUP]My view that any bubble of CO2 a person can see is a waste of CO2, the exception being for some primitive plants, is controversial here.
    [SUP]2[/SUP] Seachem Equilibrium is a fine but over-priced product.



     
  17. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Since it's hit and miss I'm getting the idea that inconsistency in CO2 is the problem, caused by lag in the system. A drop checker also has a lot of lag, temporary CO2 deficiencies won't show up. These deficiencies might occur in the first hour after lights switch on if the system has a lot of lag. The consequence is that pH would rise shortly, even 0,1 pH could be enough (=10 ppm less)

    The AM 1000 is ok but being unmodified for 3/4 inch hoses and on a 1266 might not be enough for a 130 g tank to keep up with the demand and kind of high light.

    btw, GH might be an issue also... with Nesea GH 4 is ok, but 6 might be too high. So if it's fluctuating, this could also cause times where the plants grow well and times where they don't.
     
    #17 dutchy, Aug 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2011
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Goofed Again


    Hi Sam,

    I was mistaken :eek: I have Nesaea pedicellata, I have it as African Orange hygro, it does not seem a particularly difficult plant and seems tolerant of a fairly wide range of water conditions, it seems to like rich substrates and is definitely an iron and CO2 hog. ;)



    Golden-orange(ish) color does offer startling contrast.;)


    The lower leaves do tend to die-away as they lose the light. The growth rate is moderate to high; it does take a bit of work to keep them from becoming “leggy.” :rolleyes:


    I have taken a look at the photo[SUP]1[/SUP] and I think I do indeed see a bit of a nutrient deficiency, I just cannot make my mind up as to precisely what. I guess I would recommend the dosing strategy I recommended earlier, if nothing else it rules out nutritional deficiency as a reason.



    I had intended to place the "manipulated" photo here. Put am not allowed to post photos for whatever reasons[SUP]2[/SUP].



    Biollante
    [SUP]1[/SUP]Photos are always difficult and since I manipulate the photos, trying to highlight certain aspects, it can lead to erroneous conclusions on my part.

    [SUP]2[/SUP]Don't know or care who I offended this time


     
  19. jerrybforl

    jerrybforl Lifetime Members
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    Sam most of the Golden Nesae, here in the states, comes from FAN also known as Florida Aquatic Nurseries. They are grown emersed. I too have had the same problem with it. Hit or miss! What I have figured out is that increasing your CO2 will help a lot and make sure your ferts are good. Since they are grown emersed, it maybe harder for them to adapt...I'm thinking anyway. The CO2 will help though for sure!
     
  20. samh

    samh Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks guys,

    @biollante - Thanks mate, i wil try that fert regime and stick to that. I have calcium sulphate and magnesium sulphate which i'll try dose as you suggested.

    @dutchy - Sorry i should have said that the reactors are sera 1000 which come standard with 3/4 hose outlets, one being powered by an eheim 2217, and 2200l/hr canister, on the otherside i have the rio 1100 misting underneath a 3000l/hr wavemaker now. I'm hoping this will improve co2.
    Just waiting a couple weeks fingers crossed :)

    Is it possible/plausible to get better co2 saturation if i just throw a reactor on every pump/canister?

    Yeah the pedicellata i have is pretty much green at the moment with orange stems, however within days of planting and original crowns curling it automatically throws out new branches which have nice new growth. They stay like this until i move them.

    The ammania gracilis does the same. I'm trying to get nice red plants to keep nice colour without increasing the lights/decreasing the lights if possible.

    Thanks for everyone's input it's really helping out, every time i fiddle i go 3 steps forward and 1 step back which isn't too bad, i'm slowly getting there with patience..... and beer.
     
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