This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

What kind of nutrient shortage is this?

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by joshua1977, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. joshua1977

    joshua1977 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Dear all,

    What kind of nutrient shortage is this:
    Imageshack - img0970rmv.jpg

    Appears approximately every fourth month and only on Echinodorus species, I currently add PMDD and DIY CO2. My tank is 240 liters, 2x 38W aquarelle light.

    The damage appears on old leaves only, not on new leaves, leaves start to whiten slightly (all Echinodorus plants at the same time over night) then, within 2-3 days, all Echinodorus plants look like the one on the picture.

    I am sure the damage is not caused by any fish since it appears only on old leaves, only on Echineciodorus species and only every fourth month approximately and I feed my Ancistrus on a daily basis with vegetable food, the Ancistrus would not be able to cause this kind of damage over one night..

    I hope I posted in the right forum, thank you in advance for any answers.

    Regards

    Joshua
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Off hand I would say iron.

    I also beleive Echinodorus can be sensitive to temperature. They seem to prefer warmer. The overnight part makes me wonder.

    I have seen this in my tanks.

    In fact I just look it up at Plant Database and they discribe exactly that condition as iron defiecency.

    The other thing I was going to point out is that these guys seem to like a little higher light, but never mind if the fix can be made without uping the light the less chance of throwing off the system for the rest of the plants.

    Biollante
     
  3. joshua1977

    joshua1977 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM

    Biollante, thank you for your answer, I keep 27º Celsius / 80.6 ºFahrenheit in my tank, part of the PMDD dosage is a Tenso cocltail which contains Iron, maybe not enough since this nutrient shortage appears? The symptoms really appear during 1 - 2 nights and within 3-4 days all old leaves on the Echinodorus plants are totally devasted.

    regards

    Joshua
     
  4. joshua1977

    joshua1977 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Sorry to dubbel post, I was really convinced that this is a nutrient shortage since it appears only on echinodorus species and only approximately every fourth month but I have been adviced by many members on an other aquarium forum that this damage is caused by ancistrus fish but I wanted a second opinion here..

    Thank you

    Joshua
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Likely Iron

    I think it is a nutrient problem, in this case iron.

    Anything the fish are doing is more likely to be secondary. I don't doubt the experience of the fine folk on your other forum. Many times we blame the fish because we see them going after a tasty treat. That is why we refer to this kind of information as anecdotal.

    The plant in a weakened state may be attractive (tasty) to fish that would otherwise leave it alone.;)

    I have found it best, not to underestimate the consumption of nutrients in a healthy growing planted aquarium. It is what drew me here, I know I found it hard to imagine.

    Can you accurately measure iron in your water column?

    My experience suggests that you are likely under dosing other micros as well. Tom Barr suggests and I certainly agree that we use iron as a proxy for the micros. That really goes back to the beginning days of PMDD, which is my preferred dosing method.

    Biollante
     
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    18
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    It is the ancistrus that is the issue here.......

    While I had one in my tank, no sword plant was safe, no matter how fat it was. It went from one to another........

    IME they have always done this to swords, can't help themselves I guess :)

    Bioallante,

    My experience is anecdotal here as well, but has been consistent over 10 years. After awhile enough anecdotes MAY add up to evidence :)

    I cannot prove but I think more up to date information is that ancistrus do cause this type of damage. It is NOT a nutrient deficieny IMO/IME.

    I can dig it out, but think there is a decent recent book in my library that shows pics of this and attributes it to these fish.

    Hope this helps.
     
  7. joshua1977

    joshua1977 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Biollante, thank you for your response, unfortunately I cannot measure iron in my water, I will have to try adding more iron to my water and see if the situation improves.

    And may I ask, what is yor preferred dosing method of PMDD? In this area I am a novice.

    Regards

    Joshua
     
  8. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    For the Moment

    My experience is anecdotal here as well, but has been consistent over 10 years. After awhile enough anecdotes MAY add up to evidence :)

    I cannot prove but I think more up to date information is that ancistrus do cause this type of damage. It is NOT a nutrient deficieny IMO/IME.

    I can dig it out, but think there is a decent recent book in my library that shows pics of this and attributes it to these fish.

    Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

    Hi Gerry,

    For the moment I'll stick to iron deficiency theory.:D

    I do grant that the observation over time is powerful and often eventually adds up to a finding.

    As I said, I don't doubt anyone's direct observation, hey, I toss romaine (lettuce) into my tanks, if I haven't par boiled it, the fish principally leave it alone, nasty stuff, I cook, weaken the stuff, it is now a tasty treat. I just think here we have an analogous situation.

    Joshua, I'll get back to you in a bit, the other creature I share space with wants me to throw a couple of vegetarians on the grill.:D

    Biollante
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Gulp

    Joshua and Gerry,

    Okay, doubt has entered my mind.

    I still believe it is an iron deficiency. The stock description of iron deficiency is just too close.:confused:

    On further reading, added to reliable observers, it is possible that the ancistrus are responsible. I have to admit the part where it happens at fairly regular intervals, suddenly and at night does sounds like Loricariid’s. :eek:

    Joshua, I am not personally familiar with the Tenso Cocktail, but it does seem to contain 40% less iron than what I use, CSM+B. Tenso Cocktail also appears completely lacking cobalt (Co) and Magnesium (Mg) and less than half the boron (B).

    Do you have chelated iron available? I would recommend dosing with chelated iron.

    Even if it turns out to be the ancistrus, at least the Echinodorus they are eating, will be healthier!:)

    Biollante
     
  10. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    I am almost 100% certain that it is a fish issue. First; it happens overnight, and then ancistrus are most active; secondly; it grazes on the hardest plants (plants he can stick on); Third; the pattern (eat leaves from the inside out). That it occurs every x time means that he wants something green that time. Do you feed with vegetables (e.g. sprouts/cucomber?)
     
  11. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Hey,

    Reminds me of Bob, my Ancistrus LOL.

    That's 100% your ancistrus, as you were told. It really has nothing to do with iron or any nutrient deficiency.

    Feeding your ancistrus boiled tender vegetables on 1-2x/week base + the bottom food will solve your issues. Also, just remove the damaged leafs. I personally didn't get rid of Bob despite my tank is now mainly crypts and swords.

    Ancistrus are fish not detritus cleaners, they do need to be specifically fed
     
  12. joshua1977

    joshua1977 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Thank you all for your answers and efforts, I do feed my Ancistrus on a daily basis with brussel sprouts but on some occasions I may have forgotten to feed them for a few days, so it seems this is what caused it then.

    Biollante, thank you for the info about the tenso cocktail.

    Regards

    Joshua
     
  13. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    It can be some individuals are more agressive with plants than others, could also depend on the presence of wood, algae...

    Personally, I feed mine no more than 1-2x/week with vegetables + regular 5-7/week bottom flakes. It will damage my plants only if I don't give specific food for too long, more than a week and not only 2-3 days.

    Also, maybe brussel sprouts isn't the best choice and in any case, varrying vegetables is important.

    Despite all your attentions, from time to time, it will like to change taste and will give your echino a try. The explanation of why only old leaves are affected could be the fact that some micro algae form on them by the time. While it eats the algae, it goes too deep on the foliage... Sometimes, even new leaves are affected by the ancistrus

    In the end you'll have to live with that situation if you like to keep the Ancistrus. I personally find its work on my echino rather good, at least it reminds to prune them from time to time :)
     
  14. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Upon Reflection

    Hi Joshua,

    After reading, reflecting, a little experimenting and a few phone calls I am convinced it is an iron deficiency that is the root cause of the problem.

    I suggest that the Tensco Cocktail you are using is deficient in iron and completely lacking Manganese. I suggest reading http://www.barrreport.com/barr-report-newsletter/1847-barr-report-newsletter-iron-manganese.html, the lack of manganese greatly reduces the effectiveness of the reduced amount of iron that is available.

    In addition, it is my experience that Echinodorus in general consume or require more iron than the average.

    In addition to switching to a micro fertilizer such as CSM+B, I also recommend the additional dosing of chelated iron.

    The Bristlenoses need a varied diet that includes spinach, cucumber, zucchini (really any of the squashes, peas, romaine lettuce, and such, blanched sometimes raw others at least three times a week, apples every now and then along with bloodworms every now and again.:cool:

    I really do believe I am right and the Ancistrus get a bum rap.:eek:

    Biollante
     
  15. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    May 23, 2009
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    But if I don't calculate it wrong, the mix of 30 grams Tensco Cocktail and 500 cc water will have higher Fe than TPN.

    TPN vs the Tensco Cocktail solution:
    Fe 0.07% vs 0.126% EDTA+0.1044% DTPA

    Of course it's a rough calculation since 1 cc of the solution may not equal 1 gram
    (1000 mg) but I doubt it will drastically change the result (?).
     
  16. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

    Local Time:
    6:33 AM
    Well, in my experiences with sword plants, they like more Iron than many other plants. I use the CSM+ B but it not is sufficient, I need to use Chelated Iron too. When this plants are very healthy dosing Iron, their leaves are different more greenish but not dark green, not have these "veins" of black colors and the leaves are tought but flexible.

    Brian
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,662
    Likes Received:
    608
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    CMS is Chelated iron.

    Swords use the same iron as other plants, just once they get well established, they grow much faster and take over, so they need moire of everything, not just Fe.

    Plecos can eat lots of different foods, but something to gnaw on seems important.

    Driftwood, frozen shelled peas are really good, spirulina algae sticks(not hikari!).

    Aquatic Eco-Systems: Aquarium Supplies - Food Sticks
    They really like these and there's no MSG and other junk in them.

    Swords get holes also if the CO2 drops.
    So if they grow and get bigger, and the CO2 is not adjusted up to account, then they cannibilize themselves and take carbon from the older leaves to supply the new ones.

    Many aquatics do this.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    I am not sure I understand.:eek:

    Your calculation seems correct to me; I confess I really don’t measure all that closely for my dosing.

    TPN is just not clicking with me; I am assuming it is a product as opposed to Tiny Plaid Ninjas.:)

    The bioavailability of iron for aquatic plants is a tricky issue to begin with, a complexed form iron is the reason for chelating; hence the use of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) and for practical purposes EDTA’s expanded form, Diethylene triamine pentaacetic acid (DTPA), neither of which are actually taken up into the plant. I refer you back to Tom Barr’s most excellent Barr Report Volume 2, Issue 4, April 2006, Iron and Manganese’s Role in Aquatic Macrophytes referenced in my last post.

    The problem is that even with the availability of readily bioavailable iron, that without sufficient manganese the iron is simply not as useful to the plant as it would otherwise. Again, I cite Tom Barr’s aforementioned work.

    Biollante
     
  19. Brian20

    Brian20 Guest

    Local Time:
    6:33 AM
    I think, If you want it easy, just, use plantes CSM+B that already have micros (iron and manganese between others) and use chelated iron too. Also good light and good CO2 and if you can use fertilization by root more than by liquid. With that you will get healthy swords and growing fast. Im thinking that Biollante is trying to tell that the sword are in not so good healthy so the weak fragile old leaves is food for the ancistrus. Then low iron and maybe low in another factor makes the plant not so healthy so the fish can make advantage of that and eat the unhealthy soft parts of the plants.

    you can make 3 things, or take the fish out, or feed it with a lots of veggies,or try to grow te plant strong.

    Brian
     
  20. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    12:33 PM
    Tpn!

    Hi All,

    nipat, the ever on the ball Philosophos, so on the ball he didn't know he was answering my question, answered it at http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6104-tropica-aquacare-plant-nutrition-liquid-what-hecks.html clued me in on TPN; it is Tropica rebrand of TMG, with that I am familiar. They want how much for TPN!!!:eek:

    Doesn’t change my answer, but at least I know you weren’t talking Tiny Plaid Nijas.

    I don’t see any problem, aside from cost, with dosing TNG. I wasn’t clear I was referring to increasing the iron via CSM+B or as TNG. The problem is with Tensco Cocktail and the lack of Manganese. Without the Manganese, it makes little difference how much iron or what form (how complexed).

    Iron in our use is a proxy for all of the micros and the baseline I use or I should say is used on this site is CSM+B. I increase iron by increasing the amount of CSM+B, in your case, the TNG takes on the same function. By increasing the iron via the mix of micros (CSM+B or TNG) we automatically increase the manganese and other micros by the same proportion.

    I have little doubt Tom Barr is correct, the Echinodorus in general appear to consume or require more iron, they are relatively dense plants and when they get going, they suck up the micros as well as the macros. All of this assumes good CO2, good water conditions and good general practices.

    Brian you are correct! I am telling Joshua and others, pending solid, as in the scientific literature and/or experimentally replicable information, I really do believe the Ancistrus are getting a bum rap.

    Joshua, as I said earlier, it is my opinion, after consideration and reflection, that you need to significantly increase, maybe not all at once, certainly the iron via the micros and most likely the macros (I/we consider CO2 a macro of sorts) as well.

    I genuinely recommend CSM+B, but any quality micros with complexed iron (look for chealated, ETDA and/or DTPA on the label) and of course Manganese. I believe that Tensco Cocktail was actually designed for terrestrial agriculture, which no doubt presupposed the Manganese in the soil.

    Feed your Bristlenoses a varied diet as explained above. Big surprise the spirulina algae sticks Tom Barr recommends are marvelous,:D along with the other vegitables.

    I think we have a “chicken and the egg” argument.:confused:

    If anyone is interested, I have more on the subject.;)

    Biollante
     
Loading...

Share This Page