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What is going wrong with EI in my tank

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by guy tillmans, Oct 7, 2008.

  1. ccLansman

    ccLansman Guru Class Expert

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    Ceg4048 for the EI you listed what is the reasoning behind the 2.5tsp of MGS04 3x per week? If its already high in water what does the excess MG help with? Or is it due to the fact that in the 6 days time between water changes all the MG in the tap is used up?
     
  2. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    If the tap is 38mg/l NO3, is this N-NO3? Or measured as NO3?

    Regards,
    Tom Barr[/quote]

    Sorry tom but the no3 is 30 mg/l instead of 38 , but still enough i think. The measurement is in NO3.
     
  3. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Do you think that Profito (easylife) is the problem because of the chelator issue?
    What should yoou advise to do increase micros/add iron?

    In have 1.5-2 wpg. It is moderate lighted tank, what should be the EI dose then?

    Ceg4048 said that there was pour co2 in my tank water, I've increased my co2 (ph 6.1 and kh 4.0)untill my fish where hiding in the plants / not moving anymore, and lost some fish. No improvement in the algae issue. Now i turned back a little the co2 (ph 6.5 by kh 4.0)and my fish are moving again. I'm assuming that my co2 level is alright. I also use a hydor pump and all the leaves are waving a little bit.

    thanks folks
     
  4. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Other question, how much light do you advise? I know in the usa they use much more light , which can cause much more problems. I've 4 bulbs of 36 w, that gives a max of 2wpg.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Your light is fine, you might try using 8-9 hours.
    Then increase once the algae is reduced.

    No need to add much KNO3(plenty f NO3 in the tap water), however, you will want to add K2SO4 instead.

    CO2 is likely fine, do not stress fish, you should not have to ever do that to get good CO2.

    I'd add about 1 tsp of K2SO4 after each water change and about another mid week.
    Still, with the algae issues, using Easy Carb for about 3-4 weeks plus 2x a week water changes should improve things for you.

    Then you can relax.

    Everyone has their issues like this at some point.
    But the issues do go away and if you keep after things, then it really shortens the time.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thxs tom
    I'll do so . I also have ro water . What would you prefer: mix my tap water with ro water (no3 will be then 15) Or use only ro water( add kh+(for ponds)) untill kh is 4.0 , or use only tap water??
     
  7. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    New update:

    I've tried very hard to figure out what the problem is with my tank, but again i don't know what to do. For 4 weeks i lowered my light intensity at 7 hours of 3 36w bulbs. Increased po4 to 2 ppm en no3 to 20 ppm, no significant improvement of the pale p.helferi, they keep white in their haerts. I increased co2 untill my fish behaving mad. some of them i lost. So i turned back the co2 untill ph is 6.5(kh 4). Drop c. is yellowish/green.
    I add 3 times/w, double dose of profito( so in total 2x the weekly dose over a week).
    Rotala's look fine and have good growth, and pearling like mad.

    still have fuzz/beard algae problems.
    I don't know what to do anymore
     
  8. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
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    People in Sweden are also having trouble with iron deficiencies using Profito or other EDTA-based micros, especiall with the P. helferi.

    I suggest testing Tropica or Seachem or HEEDTA-based micros instead. You will see the result in just a couple of days.

    P. helferi is by far the most iron demanding plant I've ever had. It's close to ridiculous. HC comes next.
     
  9. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Guy,

    Please do not give up! We all have been there, trust me.

    So let's review:

    80 gal tank
    2 wpg
    300 gph canister

    Let's stop right here.

    What type/size of filtration do you have? This rate is < 4 times per tank volume per hour, which is IME way too low...........I would suggest 10x min

    Plus what type of powerhead are you using and what rating? I think you need a more powerful filter or an additional one.......plus maybe a powerhead or two.

    Can you see all plants getting water blown past them? This was key for my carpet plants. Stems did well, but carpets were not doing well. Got some GOOD flow past those areas and in a couple of days, saw improvement, less algae, bits of growth, etc.

    The pics of your tank look like mine did before I resolved my C02 issues

    Can you detail more of your c02 delivery systtem? It may not be efficient enoug for your requirements......or may not be circulate sufficient/efficiently around the tank..........is there a blockage, kinked hose? Is the delivery system working optimally?

    I think the issue may lay more in mechanical details, if we assume you are dosing sufficiently on macros and micros, c02 is good (based on fish death and pearling), good wc habits. Could it be that the filter/flow is too low and plants are just not getting sufficient availability in all areas of the tank? If the filter is underpowered, this could also lead to some of these issues...........

    Do you have large fish, high bio-load, or heavy feeder?

    I would suggest the following for 5-7 days and let us know if any improvement:

    1. Daily wc of 50%.
    2. Dose EI after the wc at 2x the dosage for an 80 gallon. Micros about 4-6 hours later. Add excel at recommended dosage daily as well.
    3. Light is at 6-8 hours duration.
    4. Increase c02 just a bit every day and watch the fish for problems, look for more/better pearling.
    5. Add another canister if possible of at least the same size OR LARGER than whatever you have.
    6. Fluff plants at least daily with your fingers, and use a finer mesh net to catch the algae that is stirred up. This helps to keep the plants debris free.

    Optional to do prior to these steps is a 2 or 3 day blackout.

    I did a B/O then the steps I detailed above, plus a LOT of adjustment to get good c02, but can now grow anything (so far), no algae, clear water, etc. It took several months of trial and error, but I kept improving filtration, flow, current, c02 diffusion methods, EI dosing, etc and it all started to come together.

    My 180 was WAY underpowered in almost every aspect except for light. As I got better/larger components and imroved things, healthtof tank and plants did as well. ALL areas of care must be optimal for good plant growth.

    If you don't see improvement within 4 or 5 days, I would not know what to say to you, except to have someone you trust come over and review your setup.

    The fact that some plants do well and not others, is insufficient quantities of carbon and ferts.

    Hope this helps and best of luck!
     
  10. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    thanks gerryd.

    I use a powerhead, i turned my filter outlet for a time at the p.helferi, no improvement. My co2 system is with external canister where the co2 is added en ph controlled. So i've increased twice the co2 untill the fish behavior changed en some species died. More co2 is impossible imo. The co2 system works well. No heavy fishload or debris. Vacuumcleaning bottom every wc.
     
  11. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks defdac

    I will order some heedta-based fertilizer when i run out of profito. Do you suggest to add extra fe unless i use double dose fertilizer? And if , how much?
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Something seems strange here.

    The tap is fine, use that inplace of KNO3 and use K2SO4 for K+.
    PO4 is also fine.

    I agree, particularly if the tap water is higher KH, to switch to other chelators.
    DTPA is about the best general for most KH's.

    Still, the algae and some plants doing well, like the Rotala and the others are not.........is telling.

    A pH of 6.5 and a KH of 4 seems pretty rich in CO2.
    This assumes that all the KH is bicarbonate, so the real KH might be less.

    You should NEVER lose fish adjusting CO2 unless you are too impatient.
    It should always be done slow and progressively with observations for algae, fish, and plant health. Small changes little by little while keeping the other parameters in good shape.

    If you have some good flow, say 8-12x total tank volume per hour+ some surface movement, not enbough to break the water's surface, you should be easily able to add plenty of CO2 even for high light tanks.

    So something else, an air leak, too much CO2 loss etc is occurring.
    Some plants are doing well, others not, this means there's plant= plant competition occurring for a limiting resource, and it's CO2.

    This is why some plants do very well, and others that are not as CO2 competitive do poorly and then those plants get algae. Are you losing leaves(they float and shed off plants)?

    If so, it's a CO2 issue.
    Less light means less intensity, the duration can still be 8-10 hours etc.
    This places less demand on CO2 supplies.
    Changing just the duration does not, just the total for the day cycle 24 hour period.

    You might look at some other threads that are active, they both found leaks and other issues.

    Hell, I wondered why one of my tanks was not doing so hot the last 2 days, CO2 gas tank had run out:p

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks Tom

    I use now RO , no tapwater. I use kh+ en GH+ to get a kh of 4 en gh of 4, ( kh+ en GH+ from velda and is used for ponds), Would you prefer using tapwater mixed with RO?? (untill my kh is 4)
     
  14. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Further i've a hydor pump (150 g) is that enough, some say that koralia is the best, but if i put a , for example, 600 g pump in my tank , it'll look like an ocean or not?
     
  15. Dmaaaaax

    Dmaaaaax Prolific Poster

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    Wow 10x tank volume per hour for a filter? So for my 75g with about 60g of water, I want 600gph?

    I currently have a Fluval 305 (260gph) and a Magnum (250gph). These are max numbers though and I thought I was on the high side since the Fluval was rated for a 70g tank.

    Maybe an extra hang on the back filter for extra circulation? Hmmm...this could be the one that gets moved back and forth as needed to a quarentine tank. It would be cycled and ready to go.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Wow, then you are in good shape.
    Keep using it if you do not mind.

    Guy,
    I have roughly 10X per hour in most of my tanks, it depends on how you distribute the flow also.

    Incoming water
    _____________
    I
    I
    I_________________

    Outgoing spray bar along the back wall

    This will allow you to add lots of flow without moving plants around. the return water is rich in CO2, floats up through the leaves and towards the front of the tank.

    You add a little extra flow for the surface(this can be done at the top of the return spray bar also, and not a bad idea for an anti siphon hole either).

    This is about the best method for return CO2 enriched water.
    If you use disc diffusers or other in tank CO2 diffusers, then in tank current is all you have.

    Take a look at this thread also:
    http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/5167-plant-problems-help-me-fix-situation.html

    You might find some insight there.
    I've had similar problems and fix them for myself and many others over the years.
    I've had those same types of patterns in my tank, algae etc.

    The plants and algae are pretty reliable indicators.
    Particularly when your test appear to be correct.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. Dmaaaaax

    Dmaaaaax Prolific Poster

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  18. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    ok well i must do some aquatic plumbing, But if you have 10x tankvolume/ hour, lets say for me 3000 liters or 750 gallon, i've to add 2 more filter/canisters of 1200 liters/300 gallons, to achive that range.!!! (thats no option) So question is if we use powerheads, how can we "transform" them to spraybars? (adding more flow) How did you do that tom??
     
  19. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Spray bars are not the ideal way to get water circulation. Much better is a Koralia type powerhead, that uses a propeller to move a big volume of water at a not so big velocity - Water Pumps & Wavemakers: Hydor Koralia Water Circulation Pumps. This is just one brand, but one that does work well. You can see that the biggest one does move over 3000 gallons per hour. For a really big tank, like you have, it would be much better to use two or three of the smaller Koralia powerheads and not just one of the biggest ones. You can set them up to give a circular flow around the tank which isn't so strong that it blows the plants down, nor so strong that the fish are uncomfortable. And there are areas of lesser current so fish can rest.
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I suggest you use the canister and the CO2 input into the spray bar and place it low along the rear of the tank. You can use a powerhead for the rest of the tank's circulation.

    You can add another canister also, never hurts to have more filtration.

    You can use the loc line or make a your own DIY spray bar.
    You can easily make up for the flow and mixing with the powerhead and adjust it to place the flow where you want it. You want low pressure flow and high volume, not like most powerheads, more like the larger high volume marine reef powerheads.

    These do not cost that much these days, some place a CO2 diffuser disc under these to blast CO2 mist around their tank and then an air stone on a timer at night for adding O2.

    This mixes the CO2 fast and degasses it at night fast also.

    You can also do this plus add CO2 through a reactor tube and add CO2 to the spray bar as well if you add another needle valve.

    This way you can throttle between the different sources of CO2 diffusion.
    Some find this dual method useful.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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