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What factors determine working pressure

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by growitnow, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. growitnow

    growitnow Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi,
    I've been searching posts (mostly unsuccessfully) trying to understand what factors need to be considered in order to decide

    (1) what working pressure range to select when choosing or building a regulator, and
    (2) what working pressure to actually set on the regulator you have

    Looking at many regulator build threads, the output pressure guages are often 0-30 psi, but I also see 0-100 psi and 0-200 psi guages as well. A few statements/questions for which I seek feedback are below. Thanks for any help.

    ===

    You choose higher output pressure regulators (e.g., 0-100) when you need higher output, say for atomizers or if you have multiple CO2 outputs that need to maintain constant line pressure.

    Regulators in the low pressure range offer more precise control. A small turn on the needle valve will produce a small increase in CO2 with a Low pressure regulator (0-30) but will produce a large increase in CO2 with a High pressure regulator (0-200).

    Most applications would not need higher than 30 psi. True? Not true?

    If the working pressure is set too high you can damage the regulator or needle valve. Is this true?

    Is the main factor in choosing working pressure range, and, setting actual working pressure what you need? How do you decide beforehand?

    Do Dual-stage regulators have different considerations than single stage, for choosing working pressure range (0-30 vs. 0-200)

    growitnow
     
    #1 growitnow, Dec 16, 2013
  2. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hey Bob,

    I was responding to your pm. sorry for the delay.

    1. I would choose the gauges that best fit the range of the regulator.
    2. Atomizers can require up to 30 psi and > just to operate, so keep this in mind.
    3. I would take most likely whatever Matt recommends. He did a great job with mine and also explaining the different options.

    Hope this help.

    P.S. Thanks for the nice compliments in the PM.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hey Bob,

    I was responding to your pm. sorry for the delay.

    1. I would choose the gauges that best fit the range of the regulator.
    2. Atomizers can require up to 30 psi and > just to operate, so keep this in mind.
    3. I would take most likely whatever Matt recommends. He did a great job with mine and also explaining the different options.

    Hope this help.

    P.S. Thanks for the nice compliments in the PM.
     
    #2 Gerryd, Dec 16, 2013
  3. growitnow

    growitnow Lifetime Charter Member
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    Gerryd,

    > I would choose the gauges that best fit the range of the regulator.

    Can you elaborate on that? The statement implies a given regulator has specific 'preferred' output pressure ranges, presumably constrained by the manufacturer. But if a single regulator model (e.g., Victor HPT500) has different output pressure range options (0-30, 0-100, 0-200), the same question prevails. How do you choose? Do you guestimate max of what you would need? With 'need' being inferred from statements like your second one - e.g., atomoizers > 30psi?

    thanks,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Gerryd,

    > I would choose the gauges that best fit the range of the regulator.

    Can you elaborate on that? The statement implies a given regulator has specific 'referred' output pressure ranges, presumably constrained by the manufacturer. But if a single regulator model (e.g., Victor HPT500) has different output pressure range options (0-30, 0-100, 0-200), the same question prevails. How do you choose? Do you guestimate max of what you would need? With 'need' being inferred from statements like your second one - e.g., atomoizers > 30psi?

    thanks,
     
    #3 growitnow, Dec 16, 2013
  4. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    A higher working pressure range, IMO, is more versatile. The 0-200 PSI gauge is what I have been recommending to people. With this range, you can run as many tanks as you want, and not be underpowered, and use whatever diffusion method you want. Just because the gauge reads 0-200psi, this does not mean all of the 0-200psi range will be utilized or available. The gauge will always show more PSI than the regulator can output. This is a safety measure to prevent you (the user) from spiking the low pressure gauge.

    Generally speaking I recommend the 0-200psi units for multiple tanks and certain diffusion methods. It's better to have access higher pressure, than not have enough.
    If you new that you were going to stick with an ADA style ceramic diffuser, then a 0-60psi unit would be okay. But the o-60psi regulator will limit you should you want to inject via diffuser or if you have multiple tanks.
     
    #4 Matt F., Dec 16, 2013
  5. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    Generally speaking regulators come with preset output levels. The Victor VTS comes in A, B, C, D, and E ranges. These letters denote different working pressure ranges. See below:

    A = 0-30 psi
    B = 0-60 psi
    C = 0-100 psi
    D = 0-200 psi
    E = 0-400 psi, IIRC

    Victor also uses numbers (PSIG) ranges for their specialty regulators, which is what you want--an HPT500.

    An "A" range regulator will never be able to have a "B" range gauge installed on the unit. But a "D" range regulator can have a "B" range gauge installed.

    I think the 0-200 PSI range will not ever limit you. An "A" or "B" range surely will in some situations. Of course you don't want an "E" range regulator--you'll lose low pressure adjustability.

    If you get a 0-200psi regulator, you may only be able to utilize 140psi of the 200 range. The gauge will always offer a higher working pressure than the unit can produce. This is a safety measure to protect your working pressure gauge so it doesn't blow out. The only exception is when you add a "B" range gauge on a "D" regulator.
     
    #5 Matt F., Dec 16, 2013
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I prefer 0-30 psi because I do not run multi tanks or high backpressure disc.

    This gives me more accurate measure of the output pressure, I generally use a default psi, 10 psi on the nose.

    I chose this because I might by accident........... adjust the output when I'm rooting around under the tank or swapping gas tanks out.

    Same can be done for any system. I think it's not likely you'd ever need more than 50 psi frankly.
    Rather than running 4+ needle valves, just get another reg/tank.
    CO2 lines running all over, much beyond a few packed in tanks on rack, it's a PITA.
    One thing goes wrong, all the tanks go wrong.

    I did this on 8 nano tanks once.
    Each tank now has it's own dedicated CO2 system, low pressure feed to a NW and a post reactor for microbubbles.
     
    #6 Tom Barr, Dec 16, 2013
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I prefer 0-30 psi because I do not run multi tanks or high backpressure disc.

    This gives me more accurate measure of the output pressure, I generally use a default psi, 10 psi on the nose.

    I chose this because I might by accident........... adjust the output when I'm rooting around under the tank or swapping gas tanks out.

    Same can be done for any system. I think it's not likely you'd ever need more than 50 psi frankly.
    Rather than running 4+ needle valves, just get another reg/tank.
    CO2 lines running all over, much beyond a few packed in tanks on rack, it's a PITA.
    One thing goes wrong, all the tanks go wrong.

    I did this on 8 nano tanks once.
    Each tank now has it's own dedicated CO2 system, low pressure feed to a NW and a post reactor for microbubbles.
     
    #7 Tom Barr, Dec 16, 2013
  8. growitnow

    growitnow Lifetime Charter Member
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    Would a D regulator (0-200psi) with a B guage (0-60psi) have an actual output range of 0-200 psi but only 0-60 psi would be shown on the B (0-60) guage (i.e., greater than 60 psi is available but only 0-60 psi "shows" on the guage);

    OR, would a D regulator that has capacity of 0-200 psi output working pressure be limited to 0-60 psi output because it has a 0-60 psi gauge on it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Would a D regulator (0-200psi) with a B guage (0-60psi) have an actual output range of 0-200 psi but only 0-60 psi would be shown on the B (0-60) guage (i.e., greater than 60 psi is available but only 0-60 psi "shows" on the guage);

    OR, would a D regulator that has capacity of 0-200 psi output working pressure be limited to 0-60 psi output because it has a 0-60 psi gauge on it?
     
    #8 growitnow, Dec 17, 2013
  9. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you have a "D" range regulator (0-200psi) with a "B" range gauge, you can blow the "B" gauge sky-high if you're not careful. The regulator's output is pre-set at the factory. In the case you mention, the actual regulator's output is higher than the "B" gauge can handle. It's okay to run a regulator with a lower working pressure gauge as long as you don't spike it past what the gauge can handle. Should you want more working psi, you'll be out of luck. Generally speaking it's wise to buy a gauge that matches your particular regulator's working pressure range.

    The only way you can have a "B" gauge on a "D" regulator is to buy the "B" gauge separately and remove the OEM gauge, which isn't recommended.

    To answer the question you pose in the title of your thread, the customer selects the output pressure range based off their needs. 0-200psi limits you less than 0-60psi. But you won't be able to reach 200 psi on a 200psi model or 60psi on a 60psi model.
     
    #9 Matt F., Dec 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    When does one ever need 100 psi or more?
     
    #10 Tom Barr, Dec 18, 2013
  11. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    The gauges represent more than the regulator can actually produce. A 30psi working pressure gauge is just that. You will not be able to reach 30 psi even if you crank the working pressure knob all the way to the right. Same goes for a 0-60 PSI working pressure gauge. You will not be able to utilize all 60psi of the gauge b/c the regulator will not allow it. Same for the 100 psi or 200 psi gauges/ranges. I don't think we'll ever need over 200 psi of pressure aside from those with multiple tanks or a fish store. Still, you're paying for adjustability. Why not have more capability? I don't like limiting people, which can happen if you use a 0-60 psi range regulator. Those will barely crack an atomizer.

    Perfect example:

    I'd like my mustang to be ABLE to achieve a high rate of speed in case of an emergency or I want to spend a recreational day at. Will I ever drive 150+ mph? No, because it's illegal. I still like the capability. Whereas I have a mustang that is limited to 65 MPH and will barely reach that speed. What's the point? Adjustability is good. Why limit yourself?


     
    #11 Matt F., Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2013
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