What deficiency is this?

[Petex]

hi,
Sometimes my Elatine Triandra gets yellow spots and it is still this plant that gets this spots, but no other plants.
Co2 is fine (36mg/L), N ist fine (25mg/L), P is fine (2mg/L), FE (0.2mg/L) and traces are obvisously fine, too.
The thing that I can not messure/check is potassium (K).

Well, the plant was looking better times ago after using some NPK Urea stuff, but by doing so I had other potassium levels, too.
So at last I can again not judge if this has something to do with the Nitrogen source or K or whatever so.
What deficiency is this?
thx Peter

 

[dutchy]

FE (0.2mg/L) and traces are obvisously fine, too.

That's an assumption that won't solve your problem. Fe is low and so could be another trace element. For now I'd double Fe and traces and see if it makes a difference.

 

[nipat]

Magnesium (?).

 

[jonny_ftm]

I also find it too a try-guess game to figure a nutrient from the plant aspect. Any time someone asks such a question, he gets quiet all nutrients listed, depending on posters... Like dutchy said, any nutrient can be an issue. Also, iron deficiency would give a different aspect of the yellowish areas, not spots like this, but rather a peripheral to center gradient. But could depend upon plants too.

Also, measuring with test kits is never precise, too many variations.

Maybe, if you give us your tank info it would be more helpful so that you get a better support:
- volume
- light type and watts
- soil
- ferts you add and at what routine
- CO2 injection method and how you measure a 36ppm?
- waterchange?

If you dose EI, ferts are ruled out, except maybe K for some tanks or Fe on hard alkaline water and you can focus on CO2. CO2 also can give any deficit aspect. The aim of EI is to rule out ferts and stay with one variable. Much easier

 

[nipat]

I also find it too a try-guess game to figure a nutrient from the plant aspect. Any time someone asks such a question, he gets quiet all nutrients listed, depending on posters... Like dutchy said, any nutrient can be an issue. Also, iron deficiency would give a different aspect of the yellowish areas, not spots like this, but rather a peripheral to center gradient. But could depend upon plants too.

Also, measuring with test kits is never precise, too many variations.

Maybe, if you give us your tank info it would be more helpful so that you get a better support:
- volume
- light type and watts
- soil
- ferts you add and at what routine
- CO2 injection method and how you measure a 36ppm?
- waterchange?

If you dose EI, ferts are ruled out, except maybe K for some tanks or Fe on hard alkaline water and you can focus on CO2. CO2 also can give any deficit aspect. The aim of EI is to rule out ferts and stay with one variable. Much easier

Yes, that's why I added the question mark. I don't want to look like those who
are so sure when answering a question like this.

Until months ago, I had to dose so much micros to keep Stargrass from melting.
I dosed Fe as high as 0.24 PPM a day. Adjusted Mn, B. This and that..., shooting
in the dark.

Then one day I asked myself, ‘Am I doing EI right?’. So I mix my micros following
CSM+B ingredients. And dose as what EI says, no more (umm... a bit more doesn't hurt hehe)
no less.

I think one problem about EI instruction is on Calcium and Magnesium. It's not clear.
And I find that while most people who dose EI say the optimum level of Mg is 5-10 PPM.
The EI instruction just says ‘up the GH 1-2 degree with GH Booster’.

GH Booster recipes vary. And by the ‘standard ratio’, GH Booster is 3:1 Ca:Mg.
If my water has very low Mg (which I don't know, no water report). Following this
instruction can still lead to suboptimal level of Mg. Ca is less of a concern as I read
Tom's replies.

So now I have been dosing 3.5 PPM of Mg weekly. And my Stargrass won't melt
anymore, even with Fe 0.135 PPM a day, typical level of dosing CSM+B in EI style
without Fe ‘spicing up’.

Anyway, to sum it up, what I want to say is, yes if you are doing EI ‘correctly’, there are
just two things left: light and CO2. But the EI instruction is quite vague on Magnesium.

 

[jonny_ftm]

You're right, Mg is usually mainly from water tap, which is often poor in Mg, at least in my area.

I always used RO + Mg + Ca salts I add at the proportions I like. I also always added K2SO4 for K. Fe is from TPN + DTPA. Those are general directions to avoid these nutrients deficiency whatever your water parameters

 

[Petex]

Hi,
You are right @Dutchy and Elatine look good if I double traces (I tried this in past).
The only concerns I have by doing so over a long peroid is that Fe spikes up. So, I am interested to know what exactly caused such yellow spots. I ask this, because if it would be potassium deficiency - why not adding extra potassium instead of doubling (all) traces to avoid Fe spices?
(or in case of Mg ... adding MgSO4 instead?)

Our water is soft:
KH3
GH5
N 15mg/L
Potassium 2mg/L
Po4 0mg/L
Mg 6mg/L
Tank size 5Liter, 12W T4 bulb , 60-70% water change weekly
My english is not good enough to translate each article, but there is a German EI translation (its called Estimate Index PMDD Style)
So, I dose:
1ml KNO3
0.5ml EL Fosfo ( i think its is same like KH2PO4)
0.6ml Micro/traces
Doing so adds 8mg/L N, 0.7mg/L Po4 (this is what the tank/plants suck)
Or in simple words, I keep/hold N @ 25mg/L, P @ 1.5mg/L, FE @ 0.1-0.2
I guess all the stuff adds perhaps 4-5mgL/ potassium, how much Mg it adds, I don´t know.

- CO2 injection method and how you measure a 36ppm?

There are Co2 Testkits availible to get very exact Co2 values like this:
http://www.wasserpantscher.at/pi1/pd33.html

 

[Tom Barr]

I have plenty of this same plant and dose heavy, As far as the color issues, Traces, do not assume Fe is the only trace, and Mg, perhaps NO3........
It grows very fast, so you will need to keep up on the dosing and trim it often.

Those test kits tend have many issues, do not trust them in absolute terms.

I dose about 4-8X more than you, but the starting tap water is almost pure.
Put another way, adding more will not hurt.

I would add 2x the Trace
Add some MgSO4, Mg can vary some in the tap water.

 

[Petex]

Hi,
I also looked now at my old Nitro fertilizer that contained KNO3, Ca(NO3)2, NH2)2CO and Mg(NO3)2. Obvisously, the Mg(NO3)2 could explain why the plant was doing better in past if this adds Mg too.
But I skipped using this N fertilizer times ago because off the Urea/NH2)2CO stuff and was going back to KNo3 only.

Add some MgSO4, Mg can vary some in the tap water.

Waht means some Mg, how much MgSO4 should I add?
Or what about mixing Kno3, Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2?
1mg/l NO3
0,0475 mg/l Mg
0,136 mg/l Ca
0,216 mg/l K
Would doing so obvisiously also a good idea, to keep up a spezific Ca:Mg ratio?

I dose about 4-8X more than you,

How can you dose 8x more ???
25mg/L N , 1.5mg/L Po4, 0.2FE is more than zero, but dosing 4-8x more - means Nitro levels around 100-200mg/L, 10mgL/ Po4 and 1.6mg/L Fe.
This sounds a little bit "too much", but perhaps my english about my dosing was somehow wrong translated/confusing?



thx. peter

 

[jonny_ftm]

I personally find your tank too small (so harder to maintain, and this is a real difficulty for some plants in my opinion)
It is only 1.3 US gal. Furthermore, you put on it 12W PCL light, that's something near the T5, so 9 wpg!!!

I use a 11W bulb on a 12 gal tank (0.9 wpg)...

And with such a low light I add weekly: 15ppm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 9 ppm K, 0.4ppm Fe.
I go from distilled and target a KH 2.5 and GH 5-6. GH is achieved by 1:4 Ca/Mg

I find your light too extreme and your nutrients too low for such a setup
Dosing more, while changing 60% weekly like you do removes any risks of overdosing.
Using cheap nutrient salts (KNO3 powder, K2SO4 powder, KH2PO4 powder...) also gives you more control over NPK you add while keeping price so low with your small tank

I'll say:
- go another way with light (LEDs?)
- increase dosing, especially P and N, maybe add some K as it is low. Mg at 6ppm looks more than enough
- Fe can be on the higher side, without risks

But for me, light is the first issue to solve

 

[Tom Barr]

I agree with Jonny, it is hard to say with very small aquariums.

5 liters is VERY small.

Is this a mistake and not 50 liters?

I think the old fertilizer with urea is fine. Some more traces would be of use. 4-8X the traces is what I meant if that was not clear.

I'd really focus strongly on CO2 and if the aquarium is only 5 liters, make sure the water level is maintained often.

 

[Petex]

Yes, it is just only 5Liter.
I guess using my old N fertilizer could solve the Elatine problem. My concerns are still about the Urea/Ammonium stuff ifl adding much off this could (perhaps/obvisously) cause algaes ....

4-8X the traces is what I meant if that was not clear.

I guess I understand now - but are over 0.5ppm FE in the water "safe" for snails/shrimps?
Did high traces (specialy) FE levels not cause Red algaes?

I'd really focus strongly on CO2

How much can it be raised/go up, if RedFire shrimps are in the tank?

your nutrients too low for such a setup. And with such a low light I add weekly: 15ppm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 9 ppm K, 0.4ppm Fe.

Sry, I think my english was confusing; I add daily 8ppm No3 and ~0.7ppm PO4
(~60ppm N03 weekly // ~5ppm PO4 weekly)

 

[jonny_ftm]

I see,

This is too much maybe. 10 ppm NO3 3x/week is ok, 1 to 2 ppm PO4 3x/week too.
Also, Fe won't hurt shrimps in my expierience. Maybe some sensitive species like CRC, but not the neocaridina ones

For me, these are volume and light issues

 

[Petex]

This has nothing to do with light or volume. (tiny tanks with much light is not new for me)
Someone told me now that this Triandra problem has perhaps something to do with my rough gravel/substrate.
This is a point that could be really interesting, because if you look at my other Elatine plant (it is Elatine Hydropiper):

The first Picture shows Hydropiper in my rough substrate, it grows slow and really pretty flat.
The second picture shows the grow in my other substrate.
There is a very viewable difference how a Hydropiper grows in different substrates. :gw
Obvisously, with Triandra it is the same and perhaps this plant didnt like/root well in rough gravel stuff and still needs some AquaSoil, too.

Also, Fe won't hurt shrimps in my expierience.

The trace fertilizer contains Cu and adding much traces, also means much copper in return.
Obvisously adding some Ada Soil under the Triandra could be a better/safer solution. Doing so should help the plant to get FE/trraces also over the roots.
(and not just only through the water/leaves)

 

[Crispino Ramos]

Add some NPK urea stuff again, if it helped in the past - most likely, it will help this time also.

 

[Petex]

This is too much maybe. 10 ppm NO3 3x/week is ok, 1 to 2 ppm PO4 3x/week too.

You were right with this.
I investigated all things step by step and figured out that my N, FE tests gave me totally misleading/wrong results. The tests were too old and don´t work right. So those yellow spots were not caused by any deficiency - there were caused by overdosing nutrients. A new test kit shows that N levels were very high and so I guess that there was also way too much potassium in the tank and as far as I know very high potassium levels can block Ca.
This would also explain that some Rotallas had some tiny/curling leafes.

I maked days ago a 100% water change and switched back to my old (potassium reduced) NPK urea stuff thing. Now, still 5days later all things look fine, the ET looks green.
So I now trim the whole plant to get ridd off the old ugly leaves and all things will be good.

thx. Peter

 

[jonny_ftm]

Give us some feedback in 3 weeks. Conclusions after just few days often lead to false associations/beliefs

Hopefully, it will be solved for you

 

[Petex]

Hi Johnny,
here is my feedback after several weeks: Old leafes look good, still new leafes had a brighter colour but I think this is simply like the plant looks (?)
What I changed was Makro dosing and putting more (60mg/L) Co2 in the tank. The other fert levels in the tank are: 25-30mg/L N, 1.5-2mg/L PO4, 0.3 mg/L FE. Finally, the ET was growing a little bit too much for such small tank size, so I started to replace it with a slow growing Cuphea. The Cuphea stem I received weeks ago from a guy had this black algae on it:


You can see the old (algead) stem in the foreground and I have not removed it because I was curious what happens with this algae if I do nothing.
The algae sitts now since 6weeks still on the stem, it didn´t grow and also not spread/attach other plants.

So did this mean that there is no harm if we buy plants with algaes?
Or did it depend on the algae species if it is able to spread + grow even in a healthy/stable tank?

 

[Tom Barr]

ET is a very fast growing plant for such a small aquarium. Yuo might try reducing the light to slow the rate of growth.
I'd trim off the old leaves with algae. Algae will stop growing once conditions are good. But sometimes you still need to trim and export it out to have the aquarium look nice.
Red Fire shrimp are very tough and tolerant.

I have no issues with algae on plants I buy, but most are grown emergent(eg Tropica).

 

[Petex]

hi Tom,
I know that I need to remove the left algae I was still curious what happens and you are right this algae did not to grow if conditions are good.
Other algaes are much harder: Clado for example will not stop growing even if conditions are good.

Yes, plant grow is very fast with this T4 lighthning.
Tried a single blyxia weeks ago and 3weeks later I had dozens Blyxias. Currently I am trying a Rotalla Goia, this plant seems also to kreep like ET but did not too grow so fast.