My 40B keeps breaking out with cyanobacteria. What would cause this over and over? I've got an Eheim 2217, co2, medium lighting. Only thing that is different in this tank is that I use ada Amazonia as a substrate.
What causes cyanobacteria?
- Thread starter maknwar
- Start date
BGA Is Just Trying to Help, Finding Employment In These Difficult Time Is Tough
Hi,
Cyanobacteria are telling you something is unbalanced…:gw
Something is feeding it, if it is localized it can be a circulation issue. Or, something died, whatever it is your dissolved organic carbon (DOC) level is high.
Rich substrates without enough plant growth can contribute, particularly in young tanks.
I know of a couple of retail stores that have had problems with some of the commercial substrates they sell and of course want to demonstrate in their tanks, the problem is every time they uproot a plant they end up with cyanobacteria, it is/was funny (to me anyway).
The answer is/was to up the biological filtration, reduce the nutrient dosing, including being careful about feeding the fish and keep the tanks loaded with fast growing plants until the substrates mature. One place actually added tanks of potted (no soil) plants to run the water through on the way to the filters, vegetative filtration and display space all in one!:encouragement: Even then care in planting and moving plants or otherwise disturbing the substrates are important.
Cyanobacteria will not hang around if there is nothing to eat. In a sense I have come to view cyanobacteria as little DOC spill containers and indicators.:nonchalance:
Biollante
Hi,
Cyanobacteria are telling you something is unbalanced…:gw
Something is feeding it, if it is localized it can be a circulation issue. Or, something died, whatever it is your dissolved organic carbon (DOC) level is high.
Rich substrates without enough plant growth can contribute, particularly in young tanks.
I know of a couple of retail stores that have had problems with some of the commercial substrates they sell and of course want to demonstrate in their tanks, the problem is every time they uproot a plant they end up with cyanobacteria, it is/was funny (to me anyway).
The answer is/was to up the biological filtration, reduce the nutrient dosing, including being careful about feeding the fish and keep the tanks loaded with fast growing plants until the substrates mature. One place actually added tanks of potted (no soil) plants to run the water through on the way to the filters, vegetative filtration and display space all in one!:encouragement: Even then care in planting and moving plants or otherwise disturbing the substrates are important.
Cyanobacteria will not hang around if there is nothing to eat. In a sense I have come to view cyanobacteria as little DOC spill containers and indicators.:nonchalance:
Biollante
I've found that ADA As seems to have a higher incidence of BGA than pain sand/commercial inert sediments.
But.........I've not had it become an issue unless the tank was not dosed consistently.........if you miss a few times, that's okay but chronic issues and poor CO2.
Basically the question to ask: what causes sub optimal plant growth?
I have ADA AS in 3 tanks and no issues of any sort with BGA.
A client who just has me come over say once a year etc, gets it, but he doses EM and kills it, rather than addressing the root cause.
In general, if you stop dosing KNO3 for awhile, it'll rear it's ugly head.
It will form in older plain sand sediments also.
But.........I've not had it become an issue unless the tank was not dosed consistently.........if you miss a few times, that's okay but chronic issues and poor CO2.
Basically the question to ask: what causes sub optimal plant growth?
I have ADA AS in 3 tanks and no issues of any sort with BGA.
A client who just has me come over say once a year etc, gets it, but he doses EM and kills it, rather than addressing the root cause.
In general, if you stop dosing KNO3 for awhile, it'll rear it's ugly head.
It will form in older plain sand sediments also.
Now it is taboo to omit KNO3 dosing in planted tank forums. :gw
Have you tried Bacter 100? I would like to know the result because I also have chronic
(Black) BGA problem with the current tank. May be introducing another types of bacteria
is helpful for some tanks?
Have you tried Bacter 100? I would like to know the result because I also have chronic
(Black) BGA problem with the current tank. May be introducing another types of bacteria
is helpful for some tanks?
nipat;79996 said:Now it is taboo to omit KNO3 dosing in planted tank forums. :gw
Have you tried Bacter 100? I would like to know the result because I also have chronic
(Black) BGA problem with the current tank. May be introducing another types of bacteria
is helpful for some tanks?
I do not dose KNO3 much to non CO2 tanks, some folks do not at all, and they do not get BGA......but it does seem associated with it and poor plant growth in general.
But I;'ve had it attack the apical new growth tips of plants for a few weeks in the past when I dosed well, so it's not that simple and perhaps several factors cause it.
When I set up a new soil-based tank I get a BGA infection about half the time, within the first two weeks. I never see it at other times. I attribute it to a nutrient imbalance, where the soil is pumping out nutrients before the plants are ready to consume them.
Sometimes the outbreak disappears on its own. When it doesn't, a shot or two of EM
always cures the infection and it doesn't return.
Bill
Sometimes the outbreak disappears on its own. When it doesn't, a shot or two of EM
always cures the infection and it doesn't return.
Bill
my LFS so has a pretty bad outbreak in their holding/selling tank for the plants
it does not have any fish in it, plants are sold pretty quick and I have not seen many if any actually get to the point of dying, much less decaying
they have way too much light on the tank
but should have basically no DOCs, anyone care to take a stab at that one?
it does not have any fish in it, plants are sold pretty quick and I have not seen many if any actually get to the point of dying, much less decaying
they have way too much light on the tank
but should have basically no DOCs, anyone care to take a stab at that one?
High (ish) DOC + High (ish) light + Low N? = BGA in my experience.
I tried several blackouts in a row a few years ago when I was battling it, but it kept coming back.
So, I did a big water change, cleaned my filters (but not over cleaned, just a swish of the media in tank watera), and HALVED the amount of light.
No more BGA whatsoever since then.
So my money is on the DOC + Light combo.
My thinking is that ....
DOC + Light + X (Low N?) = BGA
DOC + Light + Y = Some other sort of algae
DOC + Light + Z = Some other sort of algae
(and X, Y, Z could be a certain nutrient parameter, CO2 stability, blah blah blah).
My brain is trying to make sense of it all.
mankwar - change the medium light to low light, give your tank a good clean and I bet it will be gone.
Scott.
I tried several blackouts in a row a few years ago when I was battling it, but it kept coming back.
So, I did a big water change, cleaned my filters (but not over cleaned, just a swish of the media in tank watera), and HALVED the amount of light.
No more BGA whatsoever since then.
So my money is on the DOC + Light combo.
My thinking is that ....
DOC + Light + X (Low N?) = BGA
DOC + Light + Y = Some other sort of algae
DOC + Light + Z = Some other sort of algae
(and X, Y, Z could be a certain nutrient parameter, CO2 stability, blah blah blah).
My brain is trying to make sense of it all.
mankwar - change the medium light to low light, give your tank a good clean and I bet it will be gone.
Scott.
I have to wonder if some of these tanks with Cyanobacteria have overly deep substrates, particularly near the glass were light can easily reach the deeper layers of soil.
Stagnating water currents and low levels of DO assuredly play a roll. If most aquariums provide between 2-4ppm of O2, a large percentage of tanks keep 2ppm and need to improve on the available O2 with better water flow.
Rotting or poorly developing root systems due to nutrient deficiencies provide BGA with a favorable environment to succeed. So, maintaining 10-20ppm of NO3 seams to matter in planted tanks only.
Stagnating water currents and low levels of DO assuredly play a roll. If most aquariums provide between 2-4ppm of O2, a large percentage of tanks keep 2ppm and need to improve on the available O2 with better water flow.
Rotting or poorly developing root systems due to nutrient deficiencies provide BGA with a favorable environment to succeed. So, maintaining 10-20ppm of NO3 seams to matter in planted tanks only.
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I had the BGA when I had low light on the tank. I had t5NO lights on it with duckweed stopping a lot of light. I am going to try cleaning the tank really good and then upping my nutrients to see what that does.
Also what is DOC?
Also what is DOC?
Silly Wabbit.
DOC is anything with a carbon molecule dissolved into a solution. It's the stuff AC filters remove from your water.
Just a guess, but if you have duck weed floating about (not plastered along one side from the force of the water flow returning from your filter) you should also try increasing the water flow along the waters surface and to any of the infected areas. The main goal would be to try and raise the level of dissolved Oxygen (DO) and provide nutrients for healthy plants, i.e. nutrients, CO2, etc.
Those chemical names and acroynms!
DOC is anything with a carbon molecule dissolved into a solution. It's the stuff AC filters remove from your water.
Just a guess, but if you have duck weed floating about (not plastered along one side from the force of the water flow returning from your filter) you should also try increasing the water flow along the waters surface and to any of the infected areas. The main goal would be to try and raise the level of dissolved Oxygen (DO) and provide nutrients for healthy plants, i.e. nutrients, CO2, etc.
Those chemical names and acroynms!
maknwar, I assume you mean 40G not 40B. Not sure what units "B" is.
A single Eheim 2217 on a tank of that size should be ok - provided the filter is properly managed!
Can you tell us a bit about your filter management? What media do you have in it and how are you cleaning it etc?
Have you got many fish in the tank that gobble up a lot of food, produce a lot of waste etc?
Scott.
Not sure what units "B" is.A single Eheim 2217 on a tank of that size should be ok - provided the filter is properly managed!
Can you tell us a bit about your filter management? What media do you have in it and how are you cleaning it etc?
Have you got many fish in the tank that gobble up a lot of food, produce a lot of waste etc?
Scott.
From what I've read on this thread, it appears that BGA can be caused by too much or too little light, insufficient O2, too much of or too little of various nutrients, insufficient water movement, dirty filters, too high DOC, and depth of substrate. I'm sure there are other documented potential causes.
I think that BGA is caused by several different combinations of stimuli, working together. For example too much light in combination with insufficient nutrients and hard water might cause it,
or too little light together with a high DOC might be a cause, etc.
There is probably no one answer to the question "What causes BBA?" This might be a good research project.
Bill
I think that BGA is caused by several different combinations of stimuli, working together. For example too much light in combination with insufficient nutrients and hard water might cause it,
or too little light together with a high DOC might be a cause, etc.
There is probably no one answer to the question "What causes BBA?" This might be a good research project.
Bill
Why is potassium permanganate not used to cure bga in an aquarium? Would a small dose hurt the snails and fish? Looks like potassium permanganate would kill all of it.
Generally Safe for Inverts & Filters; Do Not Exceed 2-ppm
Hi,
Potassium permanganate is not a cure as such for cyanobacteria, but can go a long way toward reducing the underlying problem of high dissolved organic material.
Aerate during treatment, remove carbon filtration, maintain 2-ppm Potassium permanganate for four hours, if it requires more than 6-ppm (3 tries) then certainly changes in aquarium management practices are in order.:nonchalance:
Remember to dose iron after treatment, a substantial water change is a good idea.:encouragement:
Biollante
maknwar;80153 said:
Hi,
Potassium permanganate is not a cure as such for cyanobacteria, but can go a long way toward reducing the underlying problem of high dissolved organic material.
Aerate during treatment, remove carbon filtration, maintain 2-ppm Potassium permanganate for four hours, if it requires more than 6-ppm (3 tries) then certainly changes in aquarium management practices are in order.:nonchalance:
Remember to dose iron after treatment, a substantial water change is a good idea.:encouragement:
Biollante
Well it is a strong oxidizer like H2O2, but H2O2 is much cheaper and does not color the water, and can be used again after 1-2 hours.
I looked around and found a little BGA on the glass/gravel face on a corner closest to the window on one tank. It's been there like, for years......but never comes up or out.
I think why they BGA is there and does not bloom or cause problems, it a more intetresting question. I can scrape with a plastic paint scraper and remove it etc. that does not seem to hurt or help either way and it comes back, but just to that region only. The other side that dark and away from the window, it is clean.
I looked around and found a little BGA on the glass/gravel face on a corner closest to the window on one tank. It's been there like, for years......but never comes up or out.
I think why they BGA is there and does not bloom or cause problems, it a more intetresting question. I can scrape with a plastic paint scraper and remove it etc. that does not seem to hurt or help either way and it comes back, but just to that region only. The other side that dark and away from the window, it is clean.
Pretty In Pink
Hi,
While I am not advocating Potassium permanganate (PP) as a treatment for cyanobacteria,:apathy: I think as a tool for oxidizing (destroying) dissolved organic carbon, denying resources too and perhaps even some destruction of the cyanobacteria colonies.
An advantage PP’s (KMnO4) has over Hydrogen peroxide (H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB]) is that it is milder (not as strong an oxidizer), therefore less likely to harm critters and desirable primitive plants. (If Cl[SUB]2[/SUB] = 1.0 in relative oxidizing power, then PP = 1.24 and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] = 1.31.)
Just to be clear you can use any oxidizer “within an hour” as long as there is oxidizable material, you wish oxidized present. Otherwise, in “clean” (low TOC or high ORP value) environments dosing H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] more than once every 4-hours may be problematic.
“Coloring the water” is a temporary and desirable byproduct of using PP as it allows us with good precision know what is happening in the water and when enough PP has been added. In fact, with a little testing we can determine exactly how much PP is required,:glee: though we never want to exceed 2-ppm PP at any given time, to oxidize the materials desired.
3% H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] does appear to be 26% less expensive than PP when mixed from in concentrated amounts purchased retail.
Biollante
Hi,
While I am not advocating Potassium permanganate (PP) as a treatment for cyanobacteria,:apathy: I think as a tool for oxidizing (destroying) dissolved organic carbon, denying resources too and perhaps even some destruction of the cyanobacteria colonies.
An advantage PP’s (KMnO4) has over Hydrogen peroxide (H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB]) is that it is milder (not as strong an oxidizer), therefore less likely to harm critters and desirable primitive plants. (If Cl[SUB]2[/SUB] = 1.0 in relative oxidizing power, then PP = 1.24 and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] = 1.31.)
Just to be clear you can use any oxidizer “within an hour” as long as there is oxidizable material, you wish oxidized present. Otherwise, in “clean” (low TOC or high ORP value) environments dosing H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] more than once every 4-hours may be problematic.
“Coloring the water” is a temporary and desirable byproduct of using PP as it allows us with good precision know what is happening in the water and when enough PP has been added.
In fact, with a little testing we can determine exactly how much PP is required,:glee: though we never want to exceed 2-ppm PP at any given time, to oxidize the materials desired.3% H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] does appear to be 26% less expensive than PP when mixed from in concentrated amounts purchased retail.
- Assuming I buy distilled water at Wal-Mart for 83¢ per gallon, it costs me 63¢ per quart to make 3% PP.:wink-new:
- It is hard to beat the convenience of 88¢, 3% H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB]-quart (946-ml) bottles at Wal-Mart.
Biollante
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And My Tummy Too!
Hi Tom,
Yes. Oh yes, I have stained my skin a few times, just last week I managed to dump a couple of hundred milliliters of 1% PP all over myself. It is kind of interesting it identifies the “natural fibers” in blended fiber shirt!:cower:
It was kind of funny, aside from turning my skin a deep brown, like a serious sun tan, I had a drop of hot solder fall on my finger a couple days earlier, the PP immediately attacked all the necrotic tissue and cleaned it out perfectly. :nonchalance:
I have been handling PP all of my life and I think that is the first time I have ever done any more than splash a little or get my hands in it.:wink-new:
For the record lemon juice, removes the stain from the skin.
Blueberry stains are far tougher than PP stains (all-of-the-above are also effective against blueberry stains).:loyal:
Biollante
Tom Barr;80202 said:
Hi Tom,
Yes. Oh yes, I have stained my skin a few times, just last week I managed to dump a couple of hundred milliliters of 1% PP all over myself.
It is kind of interesting it identifies the “natural fibers” in blended fiber shirt!:cower:It was kind of funny, aside from turning my skin a deep brown, like a serious sun tan, I had a drop of hot solder fall on my finger a couple days earlier, the PP immediately attacked all the necrotic tissue and cleaned it out perfectly. :nonchalance:
I have been handling PP all of my life and I think that is the first time I have ever done any more than splash a little or get my hands in it.:wink-new:
For the record lemon juice, removes the stain from the skin.
- I took the opportunity to test removing the stains from my skin.
- Sodium bisulfite and Sodium thiosulfate worked best.
- Soap and water have no effect.
- Waiting 24 hours was pretty much as effective.
Blueberry stains are far tougher than PP stains (all-of-the-above are also effective against blueberry stains).:loyal:
Biollante