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What BBA can’t stand

Discussion in 'Algae Control' started by alessandro, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    s-l300.jpg

    Reptile bulbs, 14% UVB radiation and 30% UVA radiation, the rest as a complete light spectrum or so they claim.............


    I actually have a luminare with six 54W t5 bulbs.
    I do light 4 of those for 8 hours and the remaining two in addition to the main four, just for three hours in the center of my light cycle, simulating midday light.

    My plan is to use the two UVB bulbs for the midday center hours and see how plants fish and most important BBA react.

    In addition to this indoor experiment in spring as the weather warms up enough (early april), I will set up a 250 Gallon glass tank outdoor, close to my ponds and light it up with Sunshine only, all the rest will be set as my indoor tanks:

    double filtration with strong water flow, Pressurized Co2 with super efficient Reactor (my own design), EI dosing, 50% weekly water change, large plant biomass and very rich fish population with very heavy feedings to stimulate BBA growth.

    The tank will be shaded by an adjustable tent so that I can adjust direct sunhine duration during the day. My plan is to supply 3/4 hours direct Sunshine and the rest indirect light but I may change that to my liking.
     
    a1matt and burr740 like this.
  2. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    I look forward to your update on the experiments. I am surprised no one has looked into the linkage between UV light and BBA yet.

    Heavy fish load and feeding is a recipe for green water in outdoor set up, which may mask the experimental results. Apparently, natural UV light isn't powerful enough to eliminate green water, but in line aquarium UV can. One way to combat green water is to grow daphnia in a net as a biological filter.

    Ebay sells many LED strip and screw in black light, which is another source of UV. However I have no idea of the strength of the UV and how it is rated. Ideally, you have to simulate natural sunlight UV strength, which is a factor that can affect the experimental outcome.
     
    #22 tiger15, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  3. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    I think that the majority of people keeping aquariums do not keep ponds at the same time and that’s probably the reason why nodody noticed that BBA do not grow in outside ponds.

    Most aquarium people is only thinking about the same things: nutrient concentration, water flow, type of filter or artificial light sources, fish population and is never thinking out of the box.

    what is different in an outside pond? The major difference is Natural light from the sun, all the rest can be the same as in an indoor aquarium.

    I’m not concerned about getting green water at all, I have some fish free ponds full of daphnias to use in case of need and if the plant biomass is large enough as I’m planning I won’t have greenwater anyhow.

    In my indoor test it won’t be possible to simulate the same UV intensity and spectral distribution of the sun, but I’m hoping to see if those UV bulbs will produce any effect on BBA.

    My outdoor test instead is only a double check of using a glass tank instead than one of my plastic liner ponds that I’ve kept for years. I just want to be sure to have everything as an indoor aquarium except light.
    I will introduce healty BBA from some indoor aquariums through plants rocks and wood and see how long it will take to get them destroyed.

    I know this is not the perfect scientific method, but I still think I can get the proof of my Vision.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I've used 2 UV bulbs on my 120, never noted any BBA reduction on the wood, does not grow on the plants.
    I was hoping for better colors for the UV effect on red plants, blah.....nothing.

    But it did not help even one iota on the algae.
     
  5. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    Tom, may I ask what kind of UV Bulbs have you been using and how many hours a day they were on?

    I suspect that T5 bulbs emit a small fraction of their power under the form of UVB and UVA, thus not being able to even get close to direct solar radiation.

    The quantity of UVB and UVA should be enough to damage the DNA of the monocellular algae.
    To reproduce the same solar spectrum with the same intensity of UVB and UVA radiation I should probably use the Xenon or Metal Halide lamps as used
    for Solar testing of commercial solar panels, but it will be much better to simply place an aquarium outside exposed to direct Sunshine and see what happen.

    I will give a full report of this experiment with a journal starting day one. (april should be a good time to start this as outside tremperatures get milder and I can keep the temperature of the aquarium in my normal range, 77 to 80 F)


    Do you know where BBA occurs naturally in the wild? and what are the conditions were they grow?

    This would be a precious information. Thanks
     
  6. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    I just found this description on natural habitat of bba in another forum which I copied below. It looks like bba thrive in low nutrient fast moving stream and river and likely exposed to full sunlight.

    https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-exactly-causes-bba.36674/page-1

    1. https://books.google.ie/books?id=IikPwCt1ioEC&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=audouinella food&source=bl&ots=hMY4BDZiSg&sig=Jk-1GqavCmwZ1-uIDeXsxFMzzco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SrUpVY2SL47vasucgIAI&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=audouinella food&f=false

      Here are some extracts word for word that somewhat describe different species of freshwater red algae.

      In general, freshwater red algae are localized in reasonably unpolluted waters and are infrequent to absent in streams and rivers that are organically enriched, greatly silted, or very high in inorganic nutrients(Sheath and Hambrook, 1990)
      Fresh water algae are found in a wide range of oxygen concentrations but there tends to be an increase in frequency of occurence with higher conentrations(Sheath and Hambrook 1990)
      94% of fresh water red algae is found in rivers and streams.
      The interaction between the Ph and the form of inorganic carbon can greatly influence the productivity and distribution of Rhodophyta(Sheath and Hambrook 1990)
      Although wide spread species are found in a wide range of Ph values, the majority occur in mildly acidic waters between ph 6 and 7. However, there are exceptions to this pattern, including Bangia, Chroadactylon, Thoreales and Ceramiales which maybe considered alkalophilers(Sheath 1987)
      The effect of Ph can be attributed to the form of inorganic carbon available, some taxa such as Lemanea mamillosa have been shown to use only free CO2 as a carbon source for photosynthesis which is the predominant form in mildly acidic ph values(e.g Raven et al., 199f)
      Above ph 8, the proportion of free CO2 drops below 2-5% and species occuring in these waters would require flow replenishment or use of alternative sources of inorganic carbon(Sheath and Hambrook, 1990)
      One species commonly distributed in high Ph waters is the crustose Hilden brandia rivularis, which also utilizes CO2 as a carbon source but may also use HCO3-, although this possibility has not been confirmed (Raven et al, 1994)

      Freshwater rhodophytes occur in a broad range of nutrient values, but they are more typically found in low to moderate regimes(e.g., PO4*3- below detection to 100mg/l-1)
      The common occurence of red algae at low nutrient levels is partually due to flow replenishment and reduction of the boundary layer of depletion riverine systems. In addition, many species form colorless hair cells that may be produced in response to nutrient deficiency, as is the case for some green algal filaments.
      Some researches have employed rhodophytes for classification of streams. For example in Austria Hildenbrandia is typical of lowland rivers with relatively high nutrients, wheres Lemanea is regarded as indicative of high altitude streams with low nutrients.


      sciencefiction, 12 Apr 2015
      #280

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  7. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    thank you, very interesting information!

    It looks like there are many Rodhophites which thrive in different conditions, we should identify the ones in our aquariums to be more precise. Even if this is not so easy.

    In any case I do have plenty of nutrients in my indoor aquariums, around 40 ppm Nitrates, 20 ppm Potassium and about 4 ppm Phosphates, PH around 6,4 due to high CO2 dosing and low hardess KH3 and GH 6.

    I have a rich and healthy plant population which is free of BBA but I tend to get some on hardscape, near high water flow.

    In my outdoor ponds which receive 3/4 hours direct sunlight I never get BBA even near the filter outflow and if I introduce BBA on rocks or woods coming from my indoor aquarium they Die off very quickl

    In my ponds conditions are different as I have harder water GH 17 KH 10 and basic PH 7,3 and I do not supplement CO2 so it could be a combination of those conditions which BBA can’t stand.

    This is why in spring I will replicate indoor conditions outside except lighting with 3/4 hour of direct sunshine.

    5A7446EC-0428-4E72-9D03-411D0A1A191E.jpeg

    27D2F706-3143-4A51-8880-000584C9C0D4.jpeg
     
  8. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    in the pictures above, one of my aquariums, where I get some BBA on hardscape, very little, but very annoying and one of my ponds in wintertime, always free of BBA during any season.
     
  9. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    I can say that u can run a tank without co2 , and keep algae free, no bba.
    And when u add co2 u can see bba growing... :)
    I keep lot of tanks without co2, and never saw bba on those tanks.
    Also bba has a relation with organics in the water...
    After 5 years that i keep platns i can say that bba mostly grown i n the tanks when co2 its not stable. and when we have lot of organics , dirty filters.
    In my 180 lt i keep co2 stable 24hours, i placefo test an airpump for the night to drop the co2 a litlte, and in one week i saw bba on the platns...
    I use a litle excel on the bba , i remove the airpump and bba diapear...
     
  10. alessandro

    alessandro New Member

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    I know that if you use an algicide like Glutharaldeide you kill BBA but this is of no interest to me.

    I’m not looking to kill the problem, but rather to understand the reason or reasons that cause BBA.

    I also would like to identify the factor or factors which inhibit completely the growth of BBA in my outdoor ponds.

    I suppose this could be the Ultraviolet Radiation of the Sun or other radiations from the sun which are unavailable in our indoor tanks that only receive artificial light (very far from the solar spectrum, both in terms of radiation distribution and intensity).

    Nobody ever noticed this or even supposed that the Sun could be the best cure for BBA? This is my guess.


    Could there be other factors? Sure, there could be water hardness, PH, free CO2 concentration and who knows what else, and this is why this Spring I’ll position one of my aquariums outdoor, no artificial light only direct or indirect light from the Sun. Water conditions will be the same as in my indoor tanks low hardness, low PH, high CO2 concentrations and lots of nutrients in the water many plants and many fish with heavy feedings.
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Those details do not matter if the UV actually works.............
    I used Hortilux.
    8 hours a day.
    Pretty high lighting, 150 umols. More than most folks would ever need.

    If it harms BBA, it'll harm fish, plants, and other things as well, you are using basically a general biocide and seeking selectivity, killing only BBA or other algae, but not the plants.
    There's a good reason those T5 bulbs only emit a little bit of the UV spectrum. BBA lives in streams mostly, plenty of light and UV. CO2 ranges about 5-10 ppm. Algae are pretty tough when it comes to high light. I think common sense should tell you where this is going.
    I doubt it's going to work. Why not focus more on good CO2?
    That actually grows plants better.
    Every BBA issue I've seen in person, has been related to CO2 in some way. No exceptions. There might be some, but I've never seen it in person.
    Several 100 tanks, some operating 15 years etc. Plenty of ups and downs over that time frame.
     
  12. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    My thoughts exactly.
    CO2 lower than BBAs preferred range, large surface area so probably higher oxygen.
    I've run a long term UV steriliser and found it had no effect on BBA.
     
  13. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

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    Is there a correlation that bba can uptake organic nutrients directly more effectively than higher plants bypassing the mineralization stage? Interestingly, natural occurring bba thrive in low nutrient fast moving water and often used as an indicator of good water quality. Blue green algae, on the other hand, love eutrophic stagnant conditions from what I read.
     
  14. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    It can be a relation with oxygen in the water... High organic, high bacters --- low oxyzen...
     
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