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What am I short on?

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by rrkss, May 12, 2006.

  1. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    It might already be fixed with the new fertilizer dosage regime given to me by Tom but here is some images of my bannana plant that is clearly deficient on some nutrient. Tank is 29 gallons. 50% waterchange weekly. These nutrients are added after the WC.

    1/4 Teaspoon of KNO3
    1/16 Teaspoon of K2HPO4
    1/2 Teaspoon of CaCl2
    1/8 Teaspoon of MgSO4
    Seachem Flourish 3 mL every second day
    CO2 Injection average of about 31 ppm during the photoperiod
    Lighting: 20w 18000K Bulb, 20w 7600K Bulb, 20w 4200K Bulb

    As you can see one of the older leaves has green veins and yellow tissue around the veins. The other older leaf is fine. The newer leaves are stunted and have brown edges. Sorry about the photo quality but these are the best that I have.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. quenton

    quenton Guru Class Expert

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    Re: What am I short on?

    Are you only dosing once a week after the WC? At those rates you should be dosing 3x a week, every other day (skip 1 day so you dose 3 times).

    I would add 1/16tsp of K2SO4 to get some extra K.
    I would drop all the CaCl2 unless you know for sure you Calcium is low, and
    I would up the MgSO4 to 1/2tsp unless you now your tap water has some, mine has 8ppm to start with, so I only dose 1/8 tsp MgSO4.

    I am not sure bout the flourish, I don't know its content. Tom recommends (and I and other use) TMG at 5ml 3x a week -- for that tank size. I alternate with CSM+B to keep the cost down, using 1/16tsp to replace the 5ml of TMG.

    Your light looks not too bad, I have 4x18 on my 19g. At that rate you need CO2 -- you did not indicate if you were injecting CO2??

    (These are my personal comments are are not specifically endorsed by this web site etc etc etc .... :D )
     
  3. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    I'm not sure about dosing more NO3. My test kit still registers a positive test 40 ppm+ 3 days later which means that there is still NO3 available to feed on. I don't know my calcium or magnesium levels since my gH test kit is expired and I have not gone around to buy a new one.

    Edit: I did test my NO3 test kit with deionized water and it does test at 0 ppm so it is accurate enough to detect whether NO3 is present in the water. Since I don't have a calibrated test kit tested with a known control solution I don't really depend on the numbers that much.
     
  4. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    Quenton do you think the problem with my plant has to do with a magnesium deficiency?
     
  5. quenton

    quenton Guru Class Expert

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    Re: What am I short on?

    I had a similar situation. My test kit indicated a very high NO3, but how high I don't know because to my eyes (and my wife's) the top 3 colours were just about the same. So I guessed 60 to 100ppm. I posted that, along with what I was dosing and Tom said to ignore the test kit because what I was dosing could not produce that much. So I did, and everything seems just fine.
     
  6. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: What am I short on?

    Add more traces say 7ml alternate day of macros and check the CO2 carefully over a day (Do you get good pearling?)

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
  7. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    I don't get any pearling. Either my lights aren't strong enough or my plants aren't used to the CO2 yet. This 30 ppm CO2 was started 4 days ago. I am still wondering what the defficiency is?
     
  8. quenton

    quenton Guru Class Expert

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    Re: What am I short on?

    I would guess CO2 -- how are you handling the CO2? DIY?? tank??
    How are you measuring the CO2?
     
  9. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    I am measuring the CO2 with the pH - pH method. If I measured it with the pH kH method it would be over 50 ppm. I am diffusing it with Tom's venturi diffuser on two DIY tanks. The DIY tanks will be changed biweekly for stability (one tank a week). My question still is what is causing those deformed leaves? Lack of magnesium?
     
  10. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    ok I just did my weekly 50% waterchange. I've upped the dosage of certain things. Here is what I just dosed.

    1/4 Teaspoon of Potassium Nitrate
    1/16 Teaspoon of Potassium Mono Phosphate
    1/16 Teaspoon of Potassium Sulfate
    1/2 Teaspoon of Magnesium Sulfate
    1 Teaspoon of Calcium Chloride (My water is somewhat soft)
    5 mL of Seachem Flourish
    1 mL of Seachem Flourish Iron

    After lights out, one of the DIY CO2 cannisters will be getting a new brew. Should that clear up the problems with the bannana plant. The second healthy large leaf is starting to yellow in between the veins now so it has to be some sort of deficiency. If I knew what the deficiency was, it would help me better clear it up. Tom would you happen to know what might cause the symptoms in the photo and what I described?
     
  11. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    One more minor detail. I found some green spot algae on the glass today. I haven't had this in a long time. Could it be that I dosed too little phosphates? I plan on dosing.

    1/4 Tsp of KNO3
    1/16 Tsp of K2HPO4
    1/16 Tsp of K2SO4

    on the third day after the waterchange and the list of nutrients given above after a waterchange to increase my nutrient load. I plan to dose 1 mL of Flourish Iron Daily and Flourish every 2 days at 5 mL. This has been a big change for my tank which used to maybe see 2 mL of Flourish every 2 weeks and much less CO2. So far the BBA seems to have stopped growing but I am seeing a little bit of cyanobacteria on my plants (looks blue green in between the old BBA). Some cyanobacteria is growing on the the vallisneria also. I am going to up nitrate dosing to 2x a week instead of one like suggested. The tank is a 29 gallon by the way.
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: What am I short on?

    GSA is trypically CO2 related, if not, then adding high PO4 willa ddress that, but given the CO2 issue prior, it's likely due to CO2, you can add high PO4 and rule that out easily.

    Thing is, folks add PO4, then they get GSA, BBA etc, so they blame the PO4, when it's really the CO2.
    Adding PO4 to a PO4 limited tank will dramatically increase NO3 uptake and CO2 uptake, so you have to add more CO2, or get algae.

    This is just correlation(the PO4 effect), not a causative effect.
    Why? Because the CO2 was not controlled when the variations in PO4 were done.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    If I change my DIY brews every 4 days at night should that take care of the CO2 problem? The pressurized system is a little bit more than I intended to spend. I was thinking $100 not $150-$200+. I will dose phosphates 2x a week instead of the 1x I did last week and see if that takes care of the gsa. My main goal is to get this BBA to stop growing. My amazon swordplant so far has not shown any BBA growth on the leaves for over 5 days now which to me means that things are improving.

    My plants have never peared (except when damaged) even after waterchanges. Could this be due to high surface disturbance due to my penguin biowheel?.
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: What am I short on?

    Remove the wheel asap.

    You'll have much better results. Surface movement is fine, but those biowheel are bad for the degassing.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  15. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    Tom the Biowheel is my primary source of biofiltration. What would you reccomend to replace it?
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: What am I short on?

    Spionge filter material, don't worry about removing the Bio wheel, just do it.
    Plants remove most of the waste, the filter bacteria are merely there for a back up.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    Ok, I'll take the biowheel out tommorow. I plan on starting a low light, non CO2 planted tank in a 10 gallon with a single male betta as the fish. I'll just buy a penguin 200 for it and use the cultured bio-wheel to instantly cycle the tank for the fish. Or even better yet, should I get maybe an aquaclear filter for this tank and use the penguin on the other tank.

    I've bought a few new plants for the tank which should increase plant density.

    1 Alternathera
    1 Cryptocoryne (Has red leaves)
    1 Myriophyllum aquaticum
    1 Myriophyllum tuberculatum

    This will be added to the 29 gallon tank which already has.

    1. Giant Val
    1. Amazon Sword
    1. Banana Plant
    25 Elodea Stalks

    This should really increase the plant density in the tank. Will this be benificial given the current dosage regime of

    1/4 Tsp KNO3 (every 3 days)
    1/16 Tsp KH2PO4 (every 3 days)
    1/16 Tsp K2SO4 (every 3 days)
    1 mL of Flourish Iron Daily
    5 mL of Flourish every 2 days
    1/2 Tsp MgSO4 * 7H2O (after 50% WC)
    1/2 Tsp CaCl2 (after 50% WC)

    or should dosing be increased to meet the new plantload. One more question will increasing the plant mass of the tank be beneficial in reducing the risk of algae infestation?
     
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: What am I short on?

    Things sound fine, I often buy large buncges of plants rather than 1. I assume you mean 1, you mean bunches and not stems?

    As to your last question, this is almost a universal relationship, the more plants, the less algae.

    Always add lots of plants from day one for a tank.
    That's the bigggest mistake for most folks, they do not add enough from the start.

    They finally get things going 3-6 months later because they finally have enough plnt biomass to deal with the algae. If you start strong, there's little to no break in peroid.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. rrkss

    rrkss Prolific Poster

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    Re: What am I short on?

    Yes by one I do mean a bunch of 6 stems. They are sitting in a vase at my windowsill for a 72 hour quarantine (to eliminate the possibility of trasferring ich). This should cover at least 80% of the substrate when I am done planting. I am surprised with my results so far. Usually I would have some dust algae growing on the glass by this time of the week. So far, my glass has remained crystal clear and the BBA seems to be turning red. My Rosy barbs also seem to be picking at the BBA and eating it so this technique really works. One question, where is the list of algae types and the causes of each algae. I read in one of your past articles about a list of bioindicators.

    Thanks,
    Robert
     
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