Wet's EI modeling dosing calculator

Biollante

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jun 21, 2009
3,210
1
36
Surprise, AZ
Wet You Know I Love You & I Am No Way Smart Enough to Do This, But This Is Funny

Hi Florin,

Wet’s right!:encouragement:

When you copy and paste you no longer are “Forbidden.”:rolleyes:

You get:
http://calc.petalphile.com/api/compounds.json:
[{"K":0.3867,"name":"KNO3","N":0.138539,"sol":360,"tsp":5200,"NO3":0.6133,"target":"NO3"},{"K":0.448963656,"name":"K2HPO4","sol":1492,"P":0.177837745,"tsp":5800,"target":"PO4","PO4":0.545271861},{"K":0.2873,"name":"KH2PO4","sol":220,"P":0.227605,"tsp":5600,"target":"PO4","PO4":0.6979},{"K":0.552596,"name":"K3PO4","sol":900,"P":0.145925,"tsp":6000,"target":"PO4","PO4":0.447416},{"K":0.524447,"name":"KCl","sol":344,"tsp":4500,"target":"K","Cl":0.18401},{"K":0.448736,"name":"K2SO4","sol":120,"tsp":6400,"target":"K","S":0.18401},{"K":0.195,"name":"Seachem Equilibrium","Mn":0.0006,"Mg":0.0241,"dGH":0.0167770949,"tsp":5333,"target":"K","Ca":0.0806,"Fe":0.0011},{"name":"CaCl2.2H2O","sol":745,"dGH":0.0380755461,"tsp":3600,"target":"Ca","Ca":0.272620910142167,"Cl":0.482320930548942},{"name":"CaSO4.1/2H2O","sol":2.1,"dGH":0.0411156606,"tsp":3100,"target":"Ca","S":0.235536947260173,"Ca":0.294388129866314},{"name":"CaSO4.2H2O","sol":2.4,"dGH":0.0325113901,"tsp":3100,"target":"Ca","S":0.186246152059011,"Ca":0.232781553116106},{"name":"CaMg(CO3)2","dKH":0.0608317757,"Mg":0.1318,"dGH":0.0605379888,"tsp":14150,"target":"Ca","Ca":0.2173},{"name":"Ca(NO3)2.4H2O","sol":121,"dGH":0.0237030956,"tsp":12520,"NO3":0.525089985,"target":"Ca","Ca":0.16971416472581},{"name":"5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O","sol":271,"dGH":0.025899419,"tsp":9480,"target":"Ca","Ca":0.185439840091799,"N as NH4 and NO3":0.155544039532861},{"name":"MgSO4.7H2O","Mg":0.0986124,"sol":710,"dGH":0.0225871978,"tsp":5100,"target":"Mg","S":0.130101},{"name":"Mg(NO3)2.6H2O","N":0.109258,"Mg":0.0947932,"sol":1250,"dGH":0.0217124089,"tsp":7320,"NO3":0.483650546,"target":"NO3"},{"K":0.233,"name":"AF's MacroMicro Mix","Mn":0.00383,"Mo":0.000102,"N":0.0343,"Mg":0.0268,"tsp":5250,"Cu":0.000184,"NO3":0.152,"target":"NO3","S":0.0877,"Zn":0.000758,"Fe":0.0134},{"name":"PlantedTanksUK Trace","Mn":0.0182,"Mo":0.0015,"B":0.0105,"tsp":6000,"Cu":0.0023,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.0116,"Fe":0.084},{"name":"Plantex CSM+B","Mn":0.0187,"B":0.0118,"Mo":0.0005,"Mg":0.014,"dGH":0.00320670391,"tsp":4300,"Cu":0.0009,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.0037,"Fe":0.0653},{"name":"Miller's MicroPlex","Co":0.0005,"Mn":0.04,"B":0.005,"Mo":0.001,"Mg":0.0543,"dGH":0.0124374302,"tsp":3720,"Cu":0.015,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.014,"Fe":0.04,"Mb":0.001},{"name":"Plant-Prod Chelated","Mn":0.02,"Fe as DTPA":0.02,"Fe as EDTA":0.05,"tsp":4480,"Cu":0.001,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.004,"Fe":0.07},{"name":"Dutch Nutrient Formula","Mn":0.02,"Mo":0.006,"B":0.013,"tsp":3600,"Cu":0.001,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.004,"Fe":0.07},{"name":"Rexolin APN","Mn":0.024,"B":0.011,"Mo":0.0025,"tsp":3300,"Cu":0.0025,"target":"Fe","Zn":0.013,"Fe":0.06},{"K":0.0963,"name":"Rexolin BRA","Mn":0.0248,"B":0.021,"Mg":0.0086,"sol":200,"tsp":3500,"Cu":0.0036,"target":"Fe","S":0.0128,"Zn":0.0338,"Fe":0.0266},{"name":"Fe Gluconate (12.46%)","tsp":2440,"target":"Fe","Fe":0.1246},{"name":"DTPA Fe (11%)","tsp":3870,"target":"Fe","Fe":0.11},{"name":"DTPA Fe (10%)","tsp":4290,"target":"Fe","Fe":0.1},{"name":"EDTA Fe (13%)","sol":90,"tsp":5100,"target":"Fe","Fe":0.13},{"name":"EDDHA Fe (6%)","tsp":2420,"target":"Fe","Fe":0.06},{"name":"MnSO4.H2O","Mn":0.325038456987339,"sol":393,"tsp":7490,"target":"Mn","S":0.18971719323157}]

http://calc.petalphile.com/api/commercial_products.json

AND

http://calc.petalphile.com/api/resources.json
{"Resources":{"Dry":"calc.petalphile.com/api/compounds.json","Dosing_methods":"calc.petalphile.com/api/dosing_methods.json","Premixed":"calc.petalphile.com/api/commercial_products.json","Git":"github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator.git"},"Last_updated":1327796147}

Biollante
 

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
:) You have all contributed so much to the calculator I'm sorry that it gets nerdy sometimes. I still hold out hope that a developer will come along and pick up this work and bring new ideas using the data sets and the work already done.

tmaciak has contributed Polish and we've had an interesting discussion via PM. I asked we move it to this thread for other folks with similar concerns, and because tmaciak has found some bugs and confusing bits.

tmaciak said:
Hi,

Yes, I expect that popularity of calculator can grow, I have put a topic on few Polish forums specializing in planted tanks and on one quite a discussion has started:

http://forum.roslinyakwariowe.pl/viewtopic.php?p=279842 (you will be seeing only few first post without registration)
http://www.holenderskie.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30843
http://aquarist.pl/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=3378 (not visible at all without registration )

During doing small manual for my post on holenderskie.pl I found error, which probably is replicable, but I can not repeat replication steps at the moment - seems that it depends on sequence of changing dosing methods, see results on screen -> http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8287/yet1.png - should be 40.763 g KNO3 not 122g - probably in some cases some variables are not properly cleared and calculator uses "mixed" input before and after dosing methods change.
I think this may have been my fault from pushing new code and recklessly restarting the servers, which can cause some weirdness. You haven't seen this since we did some work a few days ago?

One of users of roslinyakwariowe.pl found small discrepancy of recommendation for EI classic and EI daily:

Doszukuję się tu jakiejś nieścisłości (mowa o działaniu aplikacji) pomiędzy "EI" a "EI dozowane codziennie".
Wprowadzam 300 litrów pojemności zbiornika, DIY, dozuję KNO3, wyliczam dozowanie dla EI.
Aplikacja podaje 7,5 ppm NO3. Z Twoich słów (w ślad za Barrem), których cytat powyżej, wynika, że to wartość pojedynczej dawki. Zatem tygodniowo:
7,5 ppm NO3 * 3 = 22,5 ppm.

Z kolei, kiedy wyliczam to samo, ale dla EI w dozowaniu codziennym, aplikacja podaje: 4,5 ppm NO3. Tygodniowo to będzie:
4,5 ppm NO3 *7 = 31,5 ppm.

Poor Google Translate translation (a little edited ;) ):

Here he is some inaccuracy (application operation) between the "EI" and "EI dosed every day."
I make 300 liters of tank capacity, DIY, dosing KNO3, I calculate the dosage for EI.
The application gives 7.5 ppm NO3. With your words (as per Barr), the quote above, it follows that the value of a single dose. So a week:
7.5 ppm NO 3 * 3 = 22.5 ppm.

In turn, when I calculate the same thing, but for EI daily dosing, the application shall state: 4.5 ppm NO3. This week will be:
4.5 ppm NO3 * 7 = 31.5 ppm.

Probably daily EI recommendations were not adjusted after last Tom's comments, maybe you should discuss it with him?
Yes, this is my fault! We changed the EI baselines, as you know, recently based on Tom's current dosing. I've scaled EI daily now to reflect this.
I have translated update of recommendation for EI dosing.

To be honest I expanded your text during translation to: "Kalkulacja pojedynczej dawki dla metody EI. Powyższą dawkę należy dozować 2-4 razy tygodniowo w zależności od zapotrzebowania roślin." which literally means: "Calculation of a single dose for the EI method. This dose should be dosed 2-4 times per week, depending on the needs of plants." :)
[/quote]
This was a good miss. Picking "The Estimative Index" now states it should be dosed 2-4 times a week.
One more question, do you have some short instruction how to calculate data needed for calculator for new fertilizer?

For example, I would like to add this fertilizer: http://www.intermag.pl/pl,0,s330,produkt111,floramix-rosliny-wodne.html and producer gives composition of this fertilizer in percents. The same is for this fertilizer: http://www.intermag.pl/pl,0,s330,produkt29,mikro-plus.html (which is Polish equivalent of CSM+B for EI users).
I do not have any documentation, but you'll find these constants here: https://github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator/tree/master/constants Notice they are just formatted files, and the description at the top of the file. Here's the one for liquids:
https://github.com/flores/yet-anoth...blob/master/constants/commercial_products.yml

I can add these new ones if this is confusing, and follow up with some documentation!

Thanks for your contributions. We broke 400 unique users the day you announced on various Polish forums. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tmaciak

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Sep 17, 2010
8
0
1
Wet;79808 said:
I think this may have been my fault from pushing new code and recklessly restarting the servers, which can cause some weirdness. You haven't seen this since we did some work a few days ago?

I have not be able to replicate problem, maybe it was some not permanent problem with script as you wrote. If I replicate problem, I'll let you know :)
 

tmaciak

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Sep 17, 2010
8
0
1
O, thanks :) I added also one another micro fertilizer, it is older version of "Mikro Plus", which is still in use (although it is not manufactured any more, a lot of people have quite a stock of this fertilizer).

I also made attempt to add Mikro and Mikro Plus as compounds - those fertilizers are quite concentrated so usually are used as weaker solution. Unfortunately, it seems that at the moment calculator barely supports compound which is not dry salt, so please review if my commit is sensible :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
It looks good, but you only need to edit commercial_products.yml for premixed stuff. (I excluded the commit to compounds.yml, and your changes are now live.)

It doesn't look all that concentrated compared to many DIY solutions, though certainly higher than American fertilizers. You're looking for a way to calculate the dilution of a premixed fertilizer, similar to one of our earlier PM exchanges? I could whip up something quick like http://glut.petalphile.com if this is a popular request. Maybe it just lets you enter the concentration of some premixed fertilizer and asks what volume you want to dose for which target. Then it figures out how to dilute the premixed fertilizer. We wire it for translation.

I am having trouble imagining how I would add the dilution feature to http://calc.petalphile.com. This is why I am thinking of a new calculator. Non-planted folks could use it for fishless cycling with ammonia solutions and stuff, too.

(I still need to get around to translating the EI calc!)

Thanks Tomek!
 

tmaciak

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Sep 17, 2010
8
0
1
As I wrote in e-mail, I understand your approach, but as Mikro and Mikro Plus are are aimed at agricultural market due to it's concentration should be dosed to aquarium in very small amounts, so people tends to made a weaker solution, concentrated more or less like Floramix.

I don't think that adding separate calculator just for that is necessary, if somebody uses diluted Mikro or Mikro Plus can just multiply results by dilution ratio (and I wrote so on Polish forums when I informed about last change).

But if you will be considering some changes in calculator IMO it would be worth to consider possibility to use liquids as compounds.

EDIT:

I found small problem with calculation for such concentrated fertilizer.

As I understand, while calculating "what dose to reach a target" for premixed fertilizers, you round result to 1ml. In normal circumstances it is not a problem, but for eg. "Mikro" and 100L tank, to reach 0,5ppm result is 3ml but should be 3,33ml (what can be verified calculating for "the result of my dose"). Not a big deal, but worth to consider when calculating strongly concentrated stuff for small tanks :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
Yeah, great use case. I've got some ideas and found something new I can use for other things as an excuse to play with this. In the pipeline.

I'm not going to adjust the rounding to 1mL for commercial products just yet, because I think it's just going to make things more confusing/complicated for *most* folks using commercial products.
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
New items to add if you are so inclined:

GH booster -> amounts of SO4, Ca, Mg, K+ from X amount of GH booster(standardized as 2 parts K2SO4, 1 part MgSO4 and 1 part CaSO4 by weight)

Acids to remove KH: H3PO4(30%), HCL(30%) pool acid, Vinegar distilled 5% as acetic acid. Not sure if you can come up with how much to add to lower KH, but these 3 are the most commonly used acids for this purpose.
 

Florin Ilia

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Mar 22, 2011
420
0
16
Bucharest, Romania
Hi Wet,

Here's another request for when you or someone else have/has time to add features:

jerrybforl;83302 said:
Florin I do have this calc on my favorites, but it's all in grams. I don't have a scale. I use measuring spoons to EI. Maybe you could add this to the calc?
Florin
 

Tug

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 5, 2009
1,150
9
38
Washington, DC
Until then.

The calc does offer mg, g and tsp/caps under "the result of your dose". I guess you have to fool with converting the recommended EI dose that way - takes about a minute to do. :p
 

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
Hey Gardeners. Sorry -- I've been away from the hobby and forums for a while. I haven't done much with this project either.

But your new posts are now issue lists! Let's work down them and add cool stuff. https://github.com/flores/yet-anoth...direction=desc&page=1&sort=created&state=open

At a hackathon a couple weeks ago, I got around to spending an hour on the multiple-compounds-in-one-solution thing on a new project (all JavaScript) but kind of got distracted and haven't really gotten anywhere on it. But another one that may become cool: https://github.com/flores/mixalot

Will make progress and update. You know how it is :) Keep the requests and suggestions coming here or on the issues list above.

Thanks :) Thanks for continuing to use the calc too. Our usage continues to look great though we've now tipped over: we get more returning visitors than new visitors. Kind of cool!
 

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
Guys, guys, hey guys, guys: pssssssssssst: I'm pushing some stuff to a new domain and hoping to keep making some time for updates before Plantbrain's talk at AGA on November 1st. Not much time! I'd really like to get something together so he can show an example for something like, "Folks, look how easy this is. Fertilizing is easy!" If you want to help, lets collaborate in this thread (new ideas welcome! working through the current ideas!) and the source code: https://github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator

http://rota.la -- don't float it around too much yet. The site will be flakey until at least AGA. But please use it for testing.
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Wet, you need to add a pH/KH/CO2 table and cal also.
pH drop vs a know starting pH(100% degas, at equilibrium with the air). Also might be good idea.
 

Wet

Lifetime Members
Lifetime Member
Aug 25, 2006
395
0
16
USA
I like the pH drop correlating to CO2 idea, but I think bringing the chart back and promoting it might be too ancient for the hobby? My thought is that most folks get confused that there can be different buffers in the water supply, and so depend on the chart blindly and trust that number more than plant health as a proxy for CO2. Am I missing the goal of this new calculator? What do you think?
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Wet;89876 said:
I like the pH drop correlating to CO2 idea, but I think bringing the chart back and promoting it might be too ancient for the hobby? My thought is that most folks get confused that there can be different buffers in the water supply, and so depend on the chart blindly and trust that number more than plant health as a proxy for CO2. Am I missing the goal of this new calculator? What do you think?

Chart is better than the drop checker, the more methods, the better.
There should be no blind adherence to any one method for CO2.
 

easttech

Member
May 9, 2013
78
0
6
Considering EI for new tank questions

Tom Barr;50050 said:
This modeling calculator is pretty useful to estimate many things with EI type water changes and dosing thereafter etc.

http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl

You can factor fish waste as well as any nutrient you want and see what the trend will be over time.

It does not factor things like light in terms of PAR, nor sediment based ferts, nor CO2, nor total plant biomass .........these are also key, but it does give a % uptake assumption in the out put.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Ok, so starting to think about a fert regime and been looking at using EI with dry ferts, certainly cheaper I think that liquid lfs stuff and with a 300 gallon tank with about 350 gallons in total water column. I went to the calculator and was lost on the 1st question regarding each dose of stuff is XXX ppm? Not sure how I begin to analyze? Been reading and still not sure about the following: I currently do a 10% wc per day, just works out easier for me and a larger one with in tank cleaning once a week of about 30%. Can I use EI with my WC schedule or do I need to change my WC schedule? EI includes KN03, sorry my brain is going to explode, but is that the same as fish/food waste? If so how do I account for that in a moderately stocked tank?

thanks
John