Wet's EI modeling calculator with graphical output and dosing calculator

Wet

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Oh god. I'm sorry man, I just never think about IE and now understand forcing folks to the new calc without testing IE was pretty lame.

http://calc.petalphile.com is back. You might need to clear browser things. http://rota.la is still up. Same for ei.petalphile.com and rota.la/ei, respectively. I'm not sure I can make time to get them right before AGA. I'd still love more bug reports.

Thanks!
 
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Wet

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rota.la and rota.la/ei should be friendly with IE now. Please let me know if it is not via github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator or here/various forums here/APC.

Thanks!
 

tmaciak

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I have one small note. On rota.la you replaced text "using" which as between aquarium volume and fertilizer kind to "fertilizers" and whole "sentence" sounds quite strange now... at least translated :) Maybe it would be possible to change it to "and I'm using fertilizers".
 

Wet

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Nice, thank you. Added that translation back. Will we be able to use your existing translation or do you think it needs to change?

Thanks Tomek!
 

Tom Barr

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Wet, you might add a pH/KH/CO2 chart, but make the pH go down to say 5.0 for the graph table. Not just 6.0. Some softer KH's often drop below the 6.0 pH range.
Also, the green range might not be optimal(20-30ppm etc), it may be 50ppm for some tanks or even higher.... as long as that caveat is added below, that should be fine.
I would not change the range, because many will end up killing their fish so 20-30 ppm is a good starting point and they can adjust slowly from there if that is not enough.
 

tmaciak

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Wet;90467 said:
Nice, thank you. Added that translation back. Will we be able to use your existing translation or do you think it needs to change?

Yes, at least for Polish is OK.

BTW I noticed, that you automatically add chart panel so probably text "Want to model long term effects [...]" should be changed after code stabilization. And I noticed error, when I calculated for result of my dose, chart part was opened, but without numbers. For other calculation method, chart part was not opened error "Stuff must be a real number. Your water change amount must be a real number." was thrown.
 

Flying Dutchy

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Oct 6, 2017
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Greetings,

I've just starting to use fertilizers but I have a few questions. I want to use the EI to get a handle on things, so I went over to https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php and filled in the values for my tank:

200 Litres, using Aqua Rebell Makro Basic.

It comes up with 163 (!!!) Milliliter of the stuff to reach 7.5ppm NO3.
It also says I should dose this 2-4x a week. This would basically mean I need a bathtub of some sorts to keep enough fertilizers in, lest I be running up and down to the LFS every other day.

Now, I've looked on the bottle, and it says, that it raises NO3 ppm by 1 for every 2 milliliters of the good stuff per 50L, so in my case (200L) that would roughly be 8ml for 1ppm up. It follows that if I believe the instructions on the bottle I need 7,5 x 8ml for that 7.5ppm total. That is 60ml.

Now there is quite a discrepancy between the 163ml the calculator gives me, and the 60ml according to the bottle. Additionally, it seems to me that dosing even that 60ml a couple of times per week also means I need a couple of buckets somewhere.... I've been trying to find a decent calculator since forever, but all links are either dead or don't specify what ppm I need to add specifically but instead tell me to add "x amount of spoons" to my aquarium. Which to me sounds rather unscientific.

For the record, I have a ph controlled CO2 bottle and 2x 24inch Current Satellite Plus Pro lights. My amount of plants is pretty decent, but nothing at all like a full Dutch-scape. I'd say about half of what a fully planted tank has.

What is the best course of action to follow in my case?

(Or could you point me in the direction for a good indication to how long I should set my light cycle, how much I need to drop ph using CO2, and how much ferts I should add?)

I greatly appreciate any and all help I can get, thanks in advance!
 

Phishless

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Are dry compounds available in you area? Mix your own, easier on the wallet too.
The Aqua Rebell seams more expensive than Seachem's water.

Which aqua rebell product do you have the calculator does not list them all?
Several Makro Basics are listed on their website.

My tanks have a 6.5 hour photoperiod, and approximately 30ppm CO2 levels give or take a bit.
 

Flying Dutchy

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As far as I know there is only 1 aqua rebell makro...

As far as powder goes, I havent a clue what is available. All I figured was that ppm was the thing I have to look for.... But for such a famous thing, Estimative Index doesnt seem to have any conrete calculators anywhere. So how is one to follow the EI? I'm super puzzled.

As for CO2, how do I know how much ppm I have? Are there test kits? Additionally, how many lumens does your lighting produce? How much do mine produce?


So many questions... and nobody seems to have any answers... Thanks a lot for your input though!
 

Phishless

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http://nilocg.com/ei-based-npk-csm-b/
This represents a standard EI group of compounds.
Dosing and mixing instructions on this site too.

Measuring CO2 is about a 1.0 drop in pH.
Measure tank during peak CO2.
Degass a sample with airstone for half hour and measure.
Degassed - peak CO2 = about 1.0 for 30ppm.

I run 100PAR @ substrate.
No idea how many lumens this is.

Basic stuff here, all over the web
 

Flying Dutchy

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Oct 6, 2017
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Thanks for the link.

How much is a "gm", is that an abbreviation for Grams? Because on the page where they list the amount to mix in a 500ml bottle, they speak of mg's and gm's. Is that a typo by the author? I ask this because lower on that same page where they list the PPS-PRO dosing method they use g's as would be expected as an abbreviation for grams.

As for my CO2 ppm question, I can just set my pH controller to lower the pH by 1 point then?

But please don't be too condescending, it is not all over the web. I have looked everywhere, Hence I came here, to the source. In fact, all the links before my posting in this thread don't even work. There isn't a calculator on the site. And I just thought that was a bit odd for such a famous index. Personally, I thought offering a calculator on the site of the person that came up with EI to be considered "basic stuff", but who am I... Anyway I will refrain from asking any further questions.
 

slipfinger

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@Flying Dutchy

I don't think @Phishless was being condescending, he stated a fact. The answers to the questions you asked regarding Co2 ppm and EI dosing are all over the web, including this website.

Regardless if the calculator is right or wrong, I don't think any premixed fertilizers like the product you are talking about above was ever designed to be used at EI levels. As you have figured out no one is going to pour a bucket of the product in their tank 3 times a week, not to mention the cost of doing so.

The link below will answer many of your question regarding EI and get you started on a simple easy routine.

https://barrreport.com/threads/ei-light-for-those-less-techy-folks.2794/
 
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Tom Barr

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Now there is quite a discrepancy between the 163ml the calculator gives me, and the 60ml according to the bottle. Additionally, it seems to me that dosing even that 60ml a couple of times per week also means I need a couple of buckets somewhere.... I've been trying to find a decent calculator since forever, but all links are either dead or don't specify what ppm I need to add specifically but instead tell me to add "x amount of spoons" to my aquarium. Which to me sounds rather unscientific.

About 95% of the liquid ferts today are based on EI and before EI: PMDD. PMDD issue about 90% EI, so it all comes from that. Tropica, SeaChem etc. All come from conversations with me 20 years ago. Others copied and saw $$$.

Trace elements where the only thing most sold back then.

As far as unscientific, EI was NEVER intended to be that.
It was intended to be a simple easy to understand method that many had been doing already.
Folks spend too much time fussing over ferts, worrying about 1 ppm here or there..........
Somethings never change.

If you dose 10ppm of NO3 vs say 12 ppm, this will never cause any issues. That's the point, it's not a narrow target, it's extremely large and folks can narrow things down to suit from there if they choose. Or not. Should not matter.
Spoons work very well. You can also make the solutions larger volume, this increases the accuracy if you fear the measuring spoons.

I ran a few sets of measuring spoon brands and then did 10 x reps for weight of each with the dry ferts. They came in very accurate actually.
Different brands of KNO3, KH2PO4 etc, grain sizes etc, that..can cause differences.

If you are concerned about nothing and want to check every atom or molecule, get a good scale that can measure to the milligram.
Weight is king.

CO2 and light are more important.
Good general care, water changes, trimming etc, more important.
Ferts? We add them routinely, that's about it.

Sediment sources? ADA aqua soil? Those offer a good increase relative to plain sand, and a back up if you forget to dose liquids.

I do not use calculators BTW, some find them useful or want to use them to check or make solutions etc.
Most do not want to learn chemistry and go through that. I've done it so long, I know what the ppm will be in most cases with the dry ferts.
Brand names, less so.

But I do not dose with brand names with good reason: they did not exists back when I started for macros. And Dupla was silly expensive.
You basically are paying for water............with a TINY little bit of ferts.

I would use the pH control as a meter only to watch what the CO2 does, rather than control it per se.
CO2 is only needed during the light cycle, not any other time.

Dennis has a good Youtube video on CO2 and measure with pH, most a synthesis of several things I mentioned.


30 ppm is just a start point for CO2, like EI's general target.
I generally target 45 ppm or so, sometimes higher even.

By using the needle valve, you can adjust the rate of CO2. This is stable.
I've suggested using milliliters/minute to measure flow rates, not bubbles etc.
I can tell how much a tank often will use by simply looking at it.
Then tweak from there. Most with 10+ years can.

But for those who cannot, or seem to always have an issue, they need to be more careful and recheck things to make sure they are not overlooking something.
No one gets everything right all the time. No method can be all things to all people either.[/quote]