Want more accuracy? Want daily PMDD style EI dosing?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Left C

Lifetime Members
Sep 26, 2005
2,500
1
36
69
Burlington, NC
Hi Hoppy

VaughnH;19187 said:
Tom's EI formula is for maintaining the Ca and Mg in the tank as the plants use up what is there. Then, when you do the 50% water change you add back for the lost Equilibrium you dumped with the water...
When I do my weekly 50% water changes, I don't add any extra Equilibrium to bring my dGH up to X dGH. My tap water already has ~ 1.7 dGH in it when I add the water back. I just continue the normal dosing like I do every day.

VaughnH;19187 said:
...In my case I dump about 11% of the Equilibrium every day, due to my constant 5 gallons per day flow into/out of the tank. So, it seems to me that I need to add about 11% of the original dose of Equilibrium every day to make up for that. I think that's where our difference comes from.
I am taking into account the 5 gallons of water that is drained and replaced daily.

The 0.675 grams or ~ ⅛ teaspoon of Equilibrium daily is based on 45 gallons and not 40 gallons. It does include the 5 gallons that is replaced daily plus the 40 gallons that is in the tank; hence the 45 gallons. If you weren't using the 5 gallons replaced daily, you would use 12.5% less daily. This would be dosing 0.59 grams daily. These amounts are based on the fact that Tom's formula calls for 25 grams mixed with 1 liter of water and dosed at 12 mL per 20 gallons. As you can see, it's a very small amount of Equilibrium that is added daily.

If you want to dose more than this or less than this, then your dosing amount will certainly be different.

VaughnH;19187 said:
...The "Dilution equation" I use is from Wikipedia and is: natural logarithm[final Concentration divided by initial concentration] = Flow Rate divided by total volume times the time interval. (all with consistent units).
Using this equation, what is your target dGH and how much will you be dosing daily? What will you be using for the time interval?

Hoppy, would you mind providing the link in Wikipedia for that dilution equation? I've been looking, but I haven't found it. It's almost 3 AM here and my eyeballs are getting crossed.:)

That particular equation is not in my lab math book and I'd like to read about it.

Thanks!

Left C
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
I would suggest testing good in the tank to make sure things are correct with the auto water change and dilutions.

Tap can change, your own set up can change some, it also depends on how much control you really need and or want.

I think it's funny to note how anal some can be about an amount to add or ppm when their plant biomass(as well as current decline) changes sometimes by a factor or 2x every 2 weeks.

Clearly that's a big oversight, so add some fudge factor in there for such changes and account for it.

In other words, do not believe everything you think:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation_of_Grandi's_series

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-570X(198311)56:5<307:EAIS>2.0.CO;2-M

Series (mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Regards,

Tom Barr
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
This is the equation I use, which is intended for gases, but should work the same for liquids: Dilution (equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The time to be inserted is the interval you want to determine the change in concentration for - one day or 24 hours for my purpose. You have to use consistent units of time and volume throughout the equation, so if the flow rate is gallons per hour, the time interval has to be in hours.
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
Tom Barr;19196 said:
I would suggest testing good in the tank to make sure things are correct with the auto water change and dilutions.

Tap can change, your own set up can change some, it also depends on how much control you really need and or want.

I think it's funny to note how anal some can be about an amount to add or ppm when their plant biomass(as well as current decline) changes sometimes by a factor or 2x every 2 weeks.

Clearly that's a big oversight, so add some fudge factor in there for such changes and account for it.

In other words, do not believe everything you think:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation_of_Grandi's_series

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-570X(198311)56:5<307:EAIS>2.0.CO;2-M

Series (mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Regards,

Tom Barr

I'm not at all anal about maintaining some specific amount of Equilibrium in the water, but I do recognize that I can't just dose a tablespoon on Monday and expect everything to remain the same for a week when I am removing about 11% of the Equilibrium every day with my water changing system. So, if I dose Equilibrium at all I need to make up that loss on a daily basis, along with my other fertilizers. Otherwise, I'm wasting my effort when I dose it. Of course, the first step is to get a good GH reading, which I just may do today!
 

Left C

Lifetime Members
Sep 26, 2005
2,500
1
36
69
Burlington, NC
VaughnH;19206 said:
This is the equation I use, which is intended for gases, but should work the same for liquids: Dilution (equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The time to be inserted is the interval you want to determine the change in concentration for - one day or 24 hours for my purpose. You have to use consistent units of time and volume throughout the equation, so if the flow rate is gallons per hour, the time interval has to be in hours.
Hi Hoppy

Your link is not a direct link to the equation that you mentioned. That link is just a link to the search feature for 174 'dilution equation' articles. That's what I was reading until 3 AM last night and I got tired and asked you if you would point it out to me.

Thanks

Left C
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
That's strange - I can't copy the link to the page I used and have it go directly to that page. Here is the google search, and the page is the second in the list: dilution equation - Google Search
In any case, I bought a Tetra GH test kit today and it says my GH is about 5-6 dGH, which is plenty. That test kit supposedly gives a red to green color change, but what I got was a faint pink to a fainter yellowish green. That made it very hard to get an accurate number, but it seemed to be 5 or 6 drops, which is 5 or 6 dGH. That makes the discussion moot for me. I don't see any reason to dose Equilibrium at all.
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Vaughn et al, the dosing of aslug of GH or any nutrient for that matter can be done, but not once a week unless it's a no CO2 set up with low flow through.

Generally, 3-5x a week dosing will work using pulse slug dosing.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

luismoniz

Prolific Poster
Jun 27, 2007
31
0
6
39
Azores
Hi,

To 1 liter of DI water add:

60 grams KNO3
18 grams of KH2PO4
25 grams of GH booster

Add 12 mls daily.

I think i will try EI but i have one question this is all together or each one separately?
Regards,

Luís Moniz
 

FacePlanted

Guru Class Expert
Jul 9, 2007
115
0
16
41
Austin, TX
Luis, I dont think it matters. If you mix each one individually, you have more control over how much you dose of each nutrient. You can add more or less of each one if you ever see the need to do so.

Or, you can mix all of these together so that you dose them all at once. This is a little simpler and can save time and effort, but you lose some control over the individual elements.

Hope that helps. :)

-Mike B-
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Some make 4 separate solutions or 3 and some just use traces and macros (2 solutions for dosing-pretty popular).

what you do not want to do is add traces with Fe with somethuign with high Ca/Mg and PO4 especially.

Once they are nice and diluted in the tank, it's fine, but at high concentrated liquid dosign solutions, they can really interact and precipitate out and form solids.

Regards,
tom Barr
 

luismoniz

Prolific Poster
Jun 27, 2007
31
0
6
39
Azores
Hi,
Thanks for the replys, I am trying use EI in my tank but have many questions :confused: because i dont know how much gh booster add.
So can you guys help me?

Regards,

Luís Moniz
 

VaughnH

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 24, 2005
3,011
94
48
85
Sacramento, CA
Test your GH and if it is 5 dGH or so you have plenty of calcium. If it isn't, it takes one tablespoon of Equilibrium or GH Booster to add 3 dGH to 20 gallons of water. You can try to raise the GH up to over 5 over a period of one week. So, if that takes one tablespoon, add a third of that (1 teaspoon) three times a week. (This isn't from Tom's recommendations, just what seems the most logical to me - a sudden rise in GH isn't good for the fish.)
 

luismoniz

Prolific Poster
Jun 27, 2007
31
0
6
39
Azores
Hi,
I made some calculations, and i need to know if i am right!

for 20gallons
60 grams KNO3 will give 0,49ppm x 12ml daily = 5,8ppm day
18 grams of KH2PO4 will give 0,17ppm x 12ml daily = 2ppm day

My question is, if i want add this 3x a week (mon., wed., fri.) i will add 11ppm of no3 and 4ppm of po4 a day?
This is correct?

Regards,

Luís Moniz
 

rafel

Junior Poster
Oct 24, 2007
28
0
1
Tom Barr;18299 said:
Alternatives to GH booster: CaCl2+MgSO4.
If you want it exact, add some K2SO4, FeSO4, MnSO4 as well.

CaCO3 is not that suitable for adding Ca, try CaCL2, you should be able to find this easy enough.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Dear Tom,
What would be the proportion of CaCl2, MgSO4 etc etc ? I mean how many tsp of each would you add to a 20g tank after 50% WC ? Please advise. TIA.
 

rthomas

Guru Class Expert
Oct 25, 2007
117
0
16
Left C;19078 said:
I had plenty of Greg Watson's dry ferts left and decide to try it. It worked OK in that particular aquarium, but there were a few minor problems. Growth was just moderate and I had GSA for a while, but a little extra KH2PO4 fixed that. I also had holes is some leaves and a little extra K2SO4 fixed that. The aquarium has some Hygrophila difformis in it. The leaves looked a little thin and there was a great quantity of water roots. I started running low on my PPS-Pro mix and I mixed up a batch of 'Barr's EI PMDD+PO4.' I used Seachem's Flourish for the trace product.

Left C, I observed that my some of my plants are suffering from some kind of deficiency like what you have before. I noticed that my Green Cabomba and Red Cabomba have great quantity of water roots. So does the Hygrophila Difformis.

The leaves of H.Difformis are slightly cupped (despite adding CaCO3, see below). Growth is moderate.

In fact all growth are moderate. To make matter worse, I have BBA infecting H.Stricta and my Glosso as well.

I followed the EI method for this 160g (600L tank). CO2 injection (plenty, believe me) and about 3WPG with weekly 50% WC.

Dosage:
2 tsp KNO3 3x weekly
1/2 tsp KH2PO4 3x weekly

For TE, I used Homegrown Hydropnic (7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06% Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA, DTPA) where I mixed 1 Tbsp ~9g into 300mL of DI and dose 20mL 3x weekly.

My tap is soft at 2dKH so I add 4 tsp CaCO3 and 2 tsp MgSO4 at every WC.

I am very upset with the result and I wish I knew what to do next. Guys I need help. TIA.
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Switch to CaSO4, use 1.5 teaspoons max for dosing the KNO3.

Prune away and clean good.
Then see. Consider a Excel treatment for 1-3 weeks.

You need a good start to get things going first.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

rthomas

Guru Class Expert
Oct 25, 2007
117
0
16
Tom Barr;20225 said:
Switch to CaSO4, use 1.5 teaspoons max for dosing the KNO3.

Prune away and clean good.
Then see. Consider a Excel treatment for 1-3 weeks.

You need a good start to get things going first.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thank you Tom. Some folks suggest that the Excel dosage should be doubled to treat BBA. On the Excel bottle it is stated that 5mL is for 40L after a major WC (>40%). Doubled means 10mL per 40L. Would this be okay? :confused:
 

Tom Barr

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Jan 23, 2005
18,696
745
113
Yes, for most species this is fine, do not add more.

Also, if you want to really beat it up, do 2x a week, 50-60% water changes and dose Excel thereafter. Add about 2/3rds this amount daily except water change day, then you do the full 10mls per 40L.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

rthomas

Guru Class Expert
Oct 25, 2007
117
0
16
Tom,
Thank you for the quick turn around.

My tab water is soft. About 2dKH. So I will add CaSO4 as you suggested. However, for a 160g tank, I am not sure how many tsp CaSO4 and MgSO4 I should add.

Please advise.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.