This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Vitamins and algae

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Tom Barr, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
  2. FacePlanted

    FacePlanted Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    "In nature, vitamin concentrations
    have been significantly correlated with algal
    biomass, 14C-uptake rate, phytoplankton
    succession, and initiation of algal blooms
    (Menzel and Spaeth 1962; Kurata et al. 1976;
    Parker 1977)."

    That's enough to convince me!

    -Mike B-
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    Correlation does not = cause however.
    Just suggested that it may not be the peachy notion that many have assumed when adding Vitamins to FW planted tanks to help the plants.

    Like most things we add, algae like the stuff as well.
    Does it induce new spore germination with FW plants there as well?

    Perhaps, interesting nonetheless.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Professor Myers

    Professor Myers Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    1
    Great Reference ! As I recall the mixtures we used to cultivate Caulerpas back in the mid 80's were heavily laden W/ B vitamins, and yes it often boosted micro algaes as well. For some reason I'd never drawn the obvious conclusion for FW applications. :eek: I'd like to see some more specific research in this area.
     
  5. detlef

    detlef Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    If a critical Vit. B12 conc. for Clado was found below which there was reduced to no growth at all why should macrophytes be any different?

    As I understand most algae need Vitamin B12. Where do Vitamins come from in aquariums if not added from an outside source?

    Best regards,
    Detlef
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    Plants make the vitamins, some algae, not all, do not.

    Unless there's a specific study showing that a specific plant requires/helps growth in some way with say Vit B12, it's speculation, guessing and a manipulation of the supporting research to sell snake oil.

    And I have a bone to pick with such shady marketing.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. kstringer1974

    kstringer1974 Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Plants vs. Algae for uptake of vitamins

    I didn't see this addressed in the thread, or if it was, I missed it. Since plants seem to have a greater ability to uptake nutrients in the water column over algae, would the same principal hold true in regards to vitamins?
    Per Tom Barr, it appears that some plants manufacture specific vitamins, but this isn't a topic I've seen a lot of information on (of course, I haven't known to look either). What vitamins do plants require and in what concentrations (macro or micro)?

    Cheers,
    Kevin
     
  8. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    44
    Vitamins are chemicals that humans benefit from getting a sufficient quantity of in our diets. The primary sources for those vitamins is plants (fruits and vegetables). A very few, as I recall, are obtained from meats.

    So, vitamins are produced by plants, and we take advantage of that with our diet.

    Farmers grow plants to make a living. They are ready, willing and able to spend money to increase their crop production, and they use a variety of fertilizers for that purpose. But, they don't use vitamins.

    It is hard to imagine aquatic plants being so different from terrrestrial plants that they alone benefit greatly from adding vitamins to their environment, the water. So, it is going to take a lot of very persuasive evidence before I will believe that there are vitamins that I can add to my aquarium that will benefit my plants.
     
  9. FacePlanted

    FacePlanted Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point, Hoppy.

    mike b
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    Perhaps.
    Plants and larger organisms can take up more, but they need more of it to do that.

    At very low concentrations, the smaller size has the advantage.
    This is true for all nutrients and uptake.

    I think it's mostly hogwash as it related to us and our tanks and is used illictedly to sell crap to hobbyists without any direct support.

    But that's not stopped them before, or folks who do not have any critical thinking ability and simply see some article, misinterpret it, then want to sell it to you.

    So it might be deception, but it's more likely ignorance:cool:
    Note, this does not mean that there is not something to it, but I'd be pretty skeptical.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0031%28196807%2980%3A1%3C52%3AACANSO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

    Suggest adding Vit B12 might help germination of Najas(but not the other species).
    Seed or propagules are not the same as plant cuttings etc.

    Another classic mistake in interpreting the research is like this paper:
    SpringerLink - Journal Article

    Vitamin C(asorbic Acid), increases in response to stress.
    People read this and think" If I add Vit C to the water, it's help my plants respond to stress!"

    No, this paper does not say this at all.

    Endogenous Vit C produced by the plant as an antioxidant is not the same as adding Vit C extogenously to water.

    They are radically different issues and treatments.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. detlef

    detlef Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry for being slighly off topic here but Wetzel/Mc Gregor's statement in their paper on axenic culture and nutritional studies
    about the ratio of monovalent:divalent cations seems interesting. The only other source I know of which claimed such impacts
    has been a book from one guy called Hückstaedt some 40 or 50 years ago if I recall correctly.

    Wetzel/McGregor found that by monovalent:divalent cation concentrations
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    I think back then, 40-50 years ago, the whole mono/divalance things was "en vogue". Then came plant hormones, then molecular stuff and so on.

    Plants and salt stress has come a long long way and we understand the molecular basis for a lot of it today. And that is what is occurring, salt stress, so when someone suggest that 20-30ppm of K+ inhibits something like Ca++ which is at 10ppm, I know it cannot be due this "ratio". Or even a ratio of 5ppm Ca++/ 50ppm K+, or 50ppm Ca++/ 5ppm K+.
    such ratios in water are very different in the soil, they are far more concentrated in the soil pore water. Our concentrations are very dilute by comparison. We can also look at most any hydroponic solution, they are extremely rich by comparison.

    Pretty simple test:cool:

    Result: no influence was noted when the concentrations where kept near these amounts for aquatic plants.

    I'll let you figure out your own conclusion and test these yourself from here.
    These are not hard test to do with good methods and observe how things do with CO2 and aquarium plant species.

    The vitamin issue is very speculative near as I can see for aquatic plants and actually "helping them". I've been unable to find much support for them. I do not think adding them hurt, however, but adding them does not help the plants as some seem to want to claim and put labels on their products claiming as much.

    Saying it is "speculation and might work, or might not, but we added it in case it might work", is the way to do this. Otherwise these clowns marketing junk end up starting up some myth.

    Most have no idea if they are right, or if it's applied correctly.
    Maybe some do but do not care, it's their job to market and sell.
    I do not know.

    K+/Ca++ are another thread/topic.
    I've covered various ratios and the +/++ charge issue a number of times.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. swylie

    swylie Prolific Poster

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    It occurs to me that the term "vitamin" is probably misleading when applied to plants anyway. Are there any non-parasitic plants that require organic chemicals for growth?
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,517
    Likes Received:
    405
    Not that I am aware of.
    Some algae though.
    Not the types we see in our tank though.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. swylie

    swylie Prolific Poster

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably symbiotic algae, I'm guessing. Perhaps a natural version of one of those minimal-genome organisms like the one that Craig Venter is trying to build? Anyway, that's tangential.
     
Loading...

Share This Page