Victor HTP-270B-250 : Help w/Tech Specs

[Tyger]

QUESTIONS:

I have several questions related to technical specs of the Victor HTP-270B-250 as I am running "Complete Leak check, Double Stage Regulator Pressurized System" as per BettaTail. I began by disassembling the rigg and reconnecting all of the components, after which I did the soap water test on all the fittings, tighted where necessary, retested with no issues, and have completed the first step (Step #1) as per BettaTail.



In any case, I have had a couple questions come-up:

1. CO2 Set-Up Components: CO2 Tank (Aluminium, Brand New, 10-lbs); Victor 270B-250 (Dual Stage), Swagelok Stainless Steel (upto Needle Valve), Fabco NV-55-18, Swagelok Brass Check Valve, Bubble Counter.
2. Question 1: According to the above mentioned guide, I should have had a HP reading of 800 psig; however, in my case, I had a reading of 900 psig though it has held steady for 12+ hours. Question: With the difference of 100 psig, I was wondering whether this was a point about which I should be concerned, is the important thing that the initial reading holds steady and not the 100 psig difference, and what accounts for the 800 psig vs 900 psig - regulator model, over full tank, etc.,?
3. Question 2: What is the regulator default outlet maximum for the Victor HPT 270B-250? What does 270B-250 translate to mean? I ask because (1) I need to know for Step #2 Leak Check and (2) I looked in Victor Catalog (pp22-23) and did not find exact translation (i.e., I believe the translation is HPT = High-Purity Two-Stage; 270 = 0-4000 psig; however, I do not know about the "B" & "250" though an educated guess for 250 might be "Outlet Pressure = 10-250 psig" as 200 is "Outlet Pressure = 10-200 psig"). In any case, I wanted to know what the default outlet maximum is to complete the test as well as what the HPT-270B-250 translates to mean.

Thanks, in advance,
~Tyger (Michael)~

Reference Link: Original Post (from which questions have come)

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[maknwar]

Its fine, 800-900 is normal. When the tank is warmer, the pressure is higher.


The pressure gauge reads 60 max, so anything past that cant be read on the gauge. I would guess that you could always email the company and they could explain it. I am sure someone here will chime in though.

 

[Matt F.]

1) You should get a range of 600-1000 psi on yoru high pressure gauge when your tank is full. No problems there.
2) HPT (High Purity Two Stage), 270 (model/series number), B output gauge range (0-60psi), B output range 2-40psig , 350 (the original CGA fitting the regulator came with)

Most if not all of the Victor regulators have a 3000 psig rated inlet pressure. That is what they are tested at.

You don't need to test your regulator per bettatail unless you are selling the unit to someone else and want to make sure it works. Even then, it's overkill. Just leak test you regulator, which you have done, and use it.
You'll notice if there is a problem real fast. No need to test beyond the basic leak test.

The regulator will hold pressure. It will be obvious if it doesn't.

 

[Tyger]

Victor HTP-270B-250 : Potentially Sad News

Well, I did the basic leak test and have tightened all the fittings so no bubbles. With regard to the regulator leak test, I completed Step #1 as I mentioned (i.e., I filled the first chamber, read 900 psi, held steady for 12+ hours. Unfortunately, Step #2 did not fair so well. I filled the second chamber to 42 psi, sealed from first chamber which dropped to 39 psi (after 10-minutes), bleed out first chamber, and in the space of 3-4 hours the second camber has bleed down to 12.5 psi. Remember, I have done the basic bubble test and tightened fittings (very tight). Although I am pretty new to CO2Pressurized Systems, I gather from BettaTails guide that the leaking is likely localized in the second chamber and, since their are no bubbles coming from the connection with the gauge, I gather it is something else.

So, I guess the question is where do I go from here. I guess I would like to confirm that the bleed-out from 39 psi to 12.5 psi as measured by the LP Gauge is not normal and indicates a leak - correct? Second, if so, where do I go from here - have regulator repaired, if so, where (Robert's Oxygen, Victor, ?)? Is it worth it? Time For New Regulator?

~Tyger (Michael)~

PS: Open To Any Other Thoughts As Well.

 

[Matt F.]

Well, I did the basic leak test and have tightened all the fittings so no bubbles. With regard to the regulator leak test, I completed Step #1 as I mentioned (i.e., I filled the first chamber, read 900 psi, held steady for 12+ hours. Unfortunately, Step #2 did not fair so well. I filled the second chamber to 42 psi, sealed from first chamber which dropped to 39 psi (after 10-minutes), bleed out first chamber, and in the space of 3-4 hours the second camber has bleed down to 12.5 psi. Remember, I have done the basic bubble test and tightened fittings (very tight). Although I am pretty new to CO2Pressurized Systems, I gather from BettaTails guide that the leaking is likely localized in the second chamber and, since their are no bubbles coming from the connection with the gauge, I gather it is something else.

So, I guess the question is where do I go from here. I guess I would like to confirm that the bleed-out from 39 psi to 12.5 psi as measured by the LP Gauge is not normal and indicates a leak - correct? Second, if so, where do I go from here - have regulator repaired, if so, where (Robert's Oxygen, Victor, ?)? Is it worth it? Time For New Regulator?

~Tyger (Michael)~

PS: Open To Any Other Thoughts As Well.

Hard to tell w/o being there. Theoretically anything could be wrong or nothing at all.
Could be that your solenoid is leaking, too. What type of solenoid do you have?

 

[Tyger]

Matt,

I thought it was be easy... lol. I am going to go to Home Depot (tomorrow) and pick-up a 1/4" NPT Plug which should eliminate possibility that their is a leak between the rig components as the first chamber is rock solid at 900 psi. In terms of solenoid, Clippard which I purchased new on Ebay (Item# 250813803489 - Seller: billt0626). If the second chamber passes the plug test, I will create a singled connection between the reducer and solenoid followed and just test the solenoid. I will post results tomorrow. Thanks for advice,

~Tyger (Michael)~

 

[Matt F.]

Matt,

I thought it was be easy... lol. I am going to go to Home Depot (tomorrow) and pick-up a 1/4" NPT Plug which should eliminate possibility that their is a leak between the rig components as the first chamber is rock solid at 900 psi. In terms of solenoid, Clippard which I purchased new on Ebay (Item# 250813803489 - Seller: billt0626). If the second chamber passes the plug test, I will create a singled connection between the reducer and solenoid followed and just test the solenoid. I will post results tomorrow. Thanks for advice,

~Tyger (Michael)~

I wouldn't plug the out-port on the regulator body. That could be dangerous.
How will you release the pressure safely?

 

[maknwar]

I agree with matt, dont plug it. Put a bunch of dishwashing soap in a cup and put some water in it. Get the cup foaming real good and cover every part with it and stare. You will see a leak somewhere.

 

[oldpunk]

Check the solenoid for a leak. I know you said its new but there is an issue with clippards leaking. It will be found by checking the area where the thin piece of metal is sandwiched between the valve body and the din connection. What would be leaking is an o-ring. This is not easily fixed and if it is your issue contact the eBay seller for a refund.

 

[bettatail]

slowly turn the plug loose, there is not much air in the second stage chamber, even a 300PSI in a second stage chamber leak off before you completely loosen the NPT plug. Done it so many times.
make sure the regulator handle at the position of completely loose, and CO2 tank close when you do this, if all the air valves are open and air gushing out non stop, that is when it cause trouble.

 

[bettatail]

Check the solenoid for a leak. I know you said its new but there is an issue with clippards leaking. It will be found by checking the area where the thin piece of metal is sandwiched between the valve body and the din connection. What would be leaking is an o-ring. This is not easily fixed and if it is your issue contact the eBay seller for a refund.

agree, O-ring is the most fragile part and most of time the first component to fail due to heated problem, these solenoid valves are actually designed for 5 and a little above max standard cubic feet per minute(SFCM) air flow rate, the fluid/flow media suppose to cool down the solenoid, but in our application the actual air flow is 0.001 and less SCFM, never good enough to cool down the coil of the solenoid.

 

[Matt F.]

slowly turn the plug loose, there is not much air in the second stage chamber, even a 300PSI in a second stage chamber leak off before you completely loosen the NPT plug. Done it so many times.
make sure the regulator handle at the position of completely loose, and CO2 tank close when you do this, if all the air valves are open and air gushing out non stop, that is when it cause trouble.

I've had swagelok caps (the blue ones) shoot off across the room and make a dent in the door. Be careful. Wasn't paying attention.

 

[Tyger]

Well, I am glad that I ran the test though I had plugged the regulator in morning prior to reading follow-up cautionary posts. Consequently, I was like hmmm, maybe I should do this outside - lol. So, I have a couple things to report:

• First, I found that the problem is not the second chamber as ran the test beginning at 42 psi which dropped to 40 psi and held rock solid for 5+ hours and I mean rock solid... no drop from 40 psi.
• Second, I survived the uncorking. Actually, I found the description offered by Bettatail to be accurate. Remembering, I loaded the 2nd chamber, then unloaded the first chamber by looening the regulator to tank connection to bleed off the 900 psi to 0 psi (emptying the first chamber), and had the CO2 tank closed. Within 1.5-2 turns, I found the pressure bled-off from 40 to 5 psi in fairly quick, steady fashion without a hiss or any real fuss. In another turn or so, I found it dropped to zero, again without hiss for fuss - from there I just unscrewed it.
• NOTE: I do appreciate the cautionary notes and I did unscrew it without body parts in the way (wink); however, it was really simple and safe at 40 psi (having followed the directions to close/turn-off tank and release gas from first chamber).

Okay, I am now at the point where I am like "wt*" - okay, my regulator chambers are solid and the output connection can hold a tight seal which is great news. I guess we can look down the pathway. Although tempted to purchase 1/8" caps and just cap-in-test each component as I attach them (and, maybe, I will end up having to do so, lol). However, as I look at the connected components and judge by the tightness of the sholid stainless steel pieces and their individual connections, I am guessing the leak is probably in the 1/4" to 1/8" reducer bushing or the solenoid. So, I guess the next step is going to be examining these components - what's the next step, cap 'em? Unfortunately, Home Depot does not sell 1/8" fittings.

~Tyger (Michael)~
.................
Brass Plug (NPT 1/4")

 

[Tyger]

Check the solenoid for a leak. I know you said its new but there is an issue with clippards leaking. It will be found by checking the area where the thin piece of metal is sandwiched between the valve body and the din connection. What would be leaking is an o-ring. This is not easily fixed and if it is your issue contact the eBay seller for a refund.

agree, O-ring is the most fragile part and most of time the first component to fail due to heated problem, these solenoid valves are actually designed for 5 and a little above max standard cubic feet per minute(SFCM) air flow rate, the fluid/flow media suppose to cool down the solenoid, but in our application the actual air flow is 0.001 and less SCFM, never good enough to cool down the coil of the solenoid.

Well, I can say that mine seems to run a bit hot. Again, thank-you, for all the help. As I think that this will be an invaluable learning experience, I want to see it through myself. With that said, I am not familiar enough with them (having purchased this one assembled); to how to disassemble and know where to find the o-ring (though I do know what one is... lol). As I am a visual person, I am sure I can do fine with a picture or two or a schematic. Anyone care to share a link or two?

~Tyger (Michael)~

PS: In the event this is the issue, I am open to recommendations on what solenoid to purchase.

 

[Tyger]

thoughts

 

[Left C]

The o-ring in the Clippard MME-2PDS-D110 solenoid is practically impossible to repair. There are threads around about this. The leak problem was so severe that both GLA and SuMo quit building regulators with these particular Clippard solenoids and went to a different manufacturer.

Burkert 6011 solenoids are very good. You can get either a brass or stainless steel solenoid with Buna-N seals from freshwatersystems.com. AquariumPlants.com sells a brass 6011 solenoid with Viton seals.

bettatail is fond of the Clippard mouse solenoids. I don't know the part number.

 

[Matt F.]

Glad nothing bad happened and your regulator is functional.
Remember we inflate tires to 35 psi. That's enough pressure to send something flying if the pressure is released suddenly. I guess as long as we are conscious about what we are doing...
That said, on to figuring out what's wrong.

 

[Tyger]

The o-ring in the Clippard MME-2PDS-D110 solenoid is practically impossible to repair. There are threads around about this. The leak problem was so severe that both GLA and SuMo quit building regulators with these particular Clippard solenoids and went to a different manufacturer. Burkert 6011 solenoids are very good. You can get either a brass or stainless steel solenoid with Buna-N seals from freshwatersystems.com. AquariumPlants.com sells a brass 6011 solenoid with Viton seals. Bettatail is fond of the Clippard mouse solenoids. I don't know the part number.

I do have the Clippard MME-2PDS (though I would not know about D110 as mine notes only "MME-2PDS"). I have heard good things about Burkert and I have seen Mouse Solenoids on Bettatails builds though I do not know much about them. I will likely go with Burkert all things being equal.

~Tyger (Michael)~

 

[Tyger]

With as large a leak as you have, I don't see how soapy water wouldn't show it. Are you absolutely certain you coated everything with it? Apologizes if I offend, but I'd just like to make sure all bases are covered (Kevmo911)

Kevmo, I know how forums go, though between all of us, if you ask for constructive help and guidance and are offended by the constructive feedback, what reason did you ask? Lol, so no worries... yes, we can go through all of the bases.

In truth, I did not discover the leak the first go around until the tank was empty as I had gone away for a few days. I did not retest prior to deconstruction of the components so I cannot go back and test. Even so, when I reconstructed the set-up, I tightened them to the same degree and found a few leaks and, so tightened them up on reconstruction. Even so, I thought I would test from the tank forward just to be sure.

With regard to regulator tests, I have successfully tested the first and second chambers which are rock solid. I am using a seal between the cylinder and nippled-nut (CGA-320). Originally, I used a cardboard like seal though I am now using a nylon crush washer and have cranked the heck out of it. In terms of tank-nipple-nut-regulator connection, I did not experience back flow loss during first chamber test after I closed-off tank (held 900 psi rock-solid for 12+ hours).

With regard to components from regulator-to-tank, I am going to reduce connections, opt to use a sealer rather than just tape, and test all the connections with ⅛" caps (which are on order). In retrospect, I see potential mistakes I might have made the first go around. First, I was too ginger with tightening connections. Second, I used a single or double wrap of Teflon Tape when I should have used 3-4 wraps. In terms of thread sealers, I have looked at a few and am open to suggestions and/or feedback. On Victor 500 Build (Barr Report), Matt used ARP Thread Sealant. Swagelok offers several options (i.e., PTFE-FREE Thread Sealant, SWAK® Anaerobic Thread Sealant, and PTFE Tape Thread Sealant). If I order from Swagelok, I thought I would order the Real Cool Snoop Liquid Leak Detector. I am, of course, open to ideas and thoughts.

In reflecting on current and past situation, I believe the weak points in my rig are probably the bubble counter, needle valve, and solenoid. In terms of bubble counter, I purchased my current one from eBay (identical to Item# 260742937205) which did not come with a washer. Is this a problem? Should I invest in a specific brand, look for a washer, or what? I’ll check the needle valve and solenoid with the caps. If it looks like the solenoid, I will deconstruct it to confirm.

I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts and/or feedback regarding choice of thread sealant (and reasons) as well as in general. I hope to give things a run this coming weekend.

~Tyger (Michael)~

 

[Left C]

I do have the Clippard MME-2PDS (though I would not know about D110 as mine notes only "MME-2PDS").

The D110 completes its part number. The MME-2PDS comes in different voltages and with either DIN connectors or wires. You can see the 10 different versions here. The "D" stands for the DIN connector w/LED and the "110" stands for 110V AC.

I have heard good things about Burkert and I have seen Mouse Solenoids on Bettatails builds though I do not know much about them. I will likely go with Burkert all things being equal.

~Tyger (Michael)~

At the bottom of the first post here are the 6011 Buna-N Burkert solenoids and 2056 LED cable plugs that freshwatersystems carries.