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unless low light, plant deficienties

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by guy tillmans, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Hi after a lot of algae problems , i lowered my light untill 1w/g (2 bulbs ) . Tank 80 G. The thread algae are gone now and i only have fuzz algae. But unless EI and Co2 , i have plant issues. Soms stem plants have deformed new growth (hygrofila stricta) and oter green stem plants have tissue (yellow/brown) problems between the leaf veins. Some leafs turn reddisch. Ca deficientie doesn't seem the issue because gh is 9 and 1/w i add 1 teespoon gh booster. Ph controler at 6.8 kh 5/6. Dropch. is in a goood range. Could too much EI cause these problems????
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, no. The part is you do not need this much nutrient since you are at 1w/gal.
    There's little debate there.

    However, too much ferts should not have any adverse effect directly.
    They use 5X EI for raising tropical aquatic plants in nurseries.

    So it's likely CO2/light.
    Try more light.

    More current, good dispersion of CO2 etc, good surface movement etc.
    1.5 W/gal ought to be fine.

    If algae appears, try 3 day blackout, return light for 2-3 days, do another 3 day blackout, turn lights on for another 3days or so, and keep doing that. Then once the algae has died back, watch and see. You can always keep doing this since it allows the plants to do fairly well, but hurts and causes the algae to die back each dark 3 day period.

    This way you weaken the algae, but still keep the plants growing, the cycling of the algae growth weakens the algae more than the plants.

    But......work on why the algae was there etc, this method just kills and weakens the algae that's already there.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    when i increase light untill 1.5w/g , what would you advise about ei dosing regime? how much po4 no3 ferts? For co2 i use a inline reactor ph controlled. so the dispersion must be fine. I lowered light because that is the only way that i can "control"my Tank, In the past more light was more problems to me. But i will try again, and again and again........ Thanks
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, actually, the CO2 might be more of the issue since you have the pH controller method.

    I'd adjust the pH down stepwise 0.1 pH and watch the aquarium for a few days after doing the 3 day blackout.

    From there, use about 1/2 the suggested EI dosing.

    When you adjust CO2, make sure the current is good throughout the aquarium, also, make sure there is some surface movement.

    Also, observe how long it takes from the start in the morning for the CO2 to achieve the set point pH. So without adding any CO2 or any pH adjustments, as soon as the lights come on, turn the CO2 and pH controller "on".

    See how long it takes.
    If it's more than 1 hour, you have issues.

    More flow through the CO2 reactor is likely required or a higher capacity Reactor/pump etc, better mixing.

    Respiration for fish is a two part process, O2 and CO2.
    So good O2 is required to maintain higher CO2.

    Try this out and watch closely, do not stress fish out!!

    This, much more than nutrients(light/CO2), is the issue for you.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    I think you could go lower. My controller is at 6,7 but with KH 7. Dropchecker lime green. With KH 5/6 You should be able to drop to Ph 6,6. That's a lot of difference in CO2.
     
  6. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Today i made a stock solution (4kh)for my dropchecker according writen on this forum. My drop checker turns green/yellow. My ph, after start light en co2 valve , is within an our in de wanted range of 6.8 (it starts from 7.3). I assume my co2 level is in a good range, unless that my plants (stem) have stunted/twisted abnormal growth, some leaves that have to be green are turning red. kh is 5/6 gh 9. EI as advised for 80G. I wil install a corlia pump tomorrow. Besides fuzz algae i have also green spot algae on older hard leaves of stemplants. 2bulbs of 36w. I'm intending to increase my light to 3 bulbs but i doubt if this is good. What causes stunted growth? Do i need to increase co2 a little more ?
    thanks folks
     
  7. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    update

    Here is a update of my tank. I increased the co2 en the current during the last weeks. Also more surface movement My plants are doing much better as before, also i got almost rid of the thread algae. Fuzz algae only on older and bad leaves.
    I also tested the kh (of tap)several times, it turns to be 2 a 3 , so i lowered ph from 6.7 to 6.4 at this moment , and i tend to lower it more step by step.

    I dose 3x 1 gram csm-b, and other days
    3x weekly 1 ppm po4 and 2 ppm no3 (because my tap has 30 ppm of no3) and 10 ppm of k2so4 (80g tank and 1.5 wpg).
    Unless my tank is doing much better, i have some algae issues andsome plants keep stunting like hygrofila stricta.
    DSC04991.jpg picture by guytillmans - Photobucket

    and a other plant(i don't know its name, you do?) has curled/stunted leafs and is colouring red at some edges. The entire plant grows good but does't look like that!
    DSC04992.jpg picture by guytillmans - Photobucket

    I've read that a lack of nitrates can cause that some green plants turn reddish(carotenoids). But my tank should have enough no3 because of the tap water (30 ppm) and the additonal 6 ppm weekly.
    Should i increase co2 a little more? Micros and macros seem fine to me, not?
    What causes the stunting, curling ?

    thanks
     
  8. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Nobody answers?
     
  9. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    For what it's worth, my H.Stricta was looking pretty lousy. I moved it to a different location in the tank where it is coping a direct blast of CO2 from my external reactor and that really perked it up. Perhaps you could move at least some of the plant (a part that's not too far gone), to a different location in the tank and wait a good couple of weeks to see if there is any improvement?

    The plant that you can't identify is possible some type of Ludwigia??? I had Ludwigia with cupped, twisted leaves. Once I got the CO2 sorted out the problem went away.

    I'd spend 99% of my time experimenting with the CO2. You only need just enough lighting, have on only the number of tubes that you need to get by.

    Scott.

    P.S. I have been on holiday for the last week; upon my return I noticed that my CO2 has slowed down (I suspect my son touched the needle valve and I didn't notice). Interesting, my plants definitely lost their lustre and became patchy, drooping leaves etc etc. CO2 is back up there again now, I have trimmed the worst bits and I'm certain things will look good again within a week or two.
     
  10. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    It will take some time for the algae issues to disappear. With a lot of help here my tank took like three months to get rid of everything. Patience is important.
    Large water changes more times per week also help, probably to get rid of spores.

    As far as I know (others can correct me if I'm wrong) stunting kan be caused by multiple factors as low CO2, but also low O2 and low nutrients.
    Plant/plant competition for CO2 (and maybe also O2) can be a factor. Keep working on your CO2 but also O2 (surface ripple)

    Another advice: Follow Tom's advice from the posts above.
     
  11. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks i wil increase my co2 by 0.05 step (ph) /week. I'm a little bit concerned about my fish though. I've little fish load. They"hide"all day between the plants and don't show up, later in the evening when light gets low, they show up or when i feed them. They never go to surface and have heavy breathing paterns, but the fact they are less active during the day concerns me, especially now i am increasing co2.
    th
     
  12. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Some fish, like cardinals, can stand high CO2 values. With me it were the otocinclus that were the first to go to the surface.
    From there I took it back 0,2 Ph.

    Just stay around at see what happens. If needed aerate or do a water change.
     
  13. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Ok Thanks, my oto's are fine at the moment , so i will slightly increase the co2

    th
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    As long as you watch the fish response after each and every adjustment, there's little issue with this method.

    I tend to wait longer than many to see what happens when I adjust CO2 in small amounts.

    Many expect immediate results.
    But I think some things this might be true, but seems to be less the case with CO2.
    Takes awhile for the momentum of growth to start again.

    I think many get impatient and overshoot the amount of CO2 they actually require. Then gas fish and then are gun shy/CO2 shy from then on.


    Regards,
    Tom barr
     
  15. DaBub

    DaBub Guru Class Expert

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    I did what Tom described with CO2, got scared, took a while and some help to get it right. Some one told me, “with plants anything that happens quickly is likely bad.”

    Some older leaves may need trimming to remove algae.

    Maybe also try some increase in KNO3, nitrates from tap are situation I have and someone suggested increasing, worked for me. :confused:
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think this is true for most things in aquariums.
    Loading too much, too fast whether it's too many fish, too much CO2/light etc seems to be bad news.

    Many aquarist are extremely cautious when it comes to PO4 or NO3, and yet , at least it has long seemed to myself based on what I've seen on line forums, very liberal with light and CO2.

    Where is all the caution there?
    Virtually every "careful nutrient management" person that I have had a debate with over EI or higher PO4/NO3 levels has virtually ignored the CO2 and light issue.

    I never understood how they could discuss balance and nutrients while ignoring those other two elements without the same rigor, careful observation and measurement.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. DaBub

    DaBub Guru Class Expert

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    What would a girl do...

    I have a friend who insisted on testing my water, could not believe I was getting the plant growth and healthy fish in my tanks, my water “looked nutrient rich” he said.

    He was appalled that nitrates in all three tanks were over 50 ppm, he seemed equally upset at whatever reading he got for phosphate. Phosphates cause algea, don'ch ya know?

    Apparently he was right, it is nutrient rich. I wonder, could that have anything to do with the fact I that I add nutrients to the water? Hmmm.

    What would a girl do without boys to look out for her? :D
     
  18. guy tillmans

    guy tillmans Guru Class Expert

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    Update

    After a few weeks battling with my co2, i've set my ph controller at 6. (kh 3 a ). Beneath 6. my fish seem to go to the surface and not swimming around anymore. So i think that 6.4 is the limit for my tank, Unless that i am also battling with gsa. Not only on old leaves from slow growing plants , but also on older leaves from fast growing plants. I increased po4 by 3 ppm per week, no changing in gsa for 2 weeks. Current seems good(estimated 8 to 10 times of my 80 G tank). There where the current hits the front glass, there are no gsa, further away they occure time after time. Can excess of macros and/or micros cause deficienties??
    Light is 1.5 wpg for 9 hours.
    I dose micros 3x pw 1 gram and po4 3x 1 ppm k2so4 3 x 10 ppm, no kno3 because of my tap(cantaines 30 ppm). WC once a week 50%.
    Should i try to increase co2 a little bit more?
     
  19. DaBub

    DaBub Guru Class Expert

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    Now I increase CO2 obseving fish.

    I have high nitrates out of the tap that did not help till I added extra kno3. I add 15-20 ppm

    seems to work not sure why.
     
  20. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    Are you sure about that? Here it's 1,5 ppm. The max tolerable is 50 ppm, but I've never measured those values.
     
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