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Twisted new leaves - deficiency?

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Pikez, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I've had this plant (Ammannia/Nesaea?) for a few weeks, but new leaves are seriously curled and twisted. Got 3 stems. 2 are not growing but 1 is.

    Plenty of nutrients with EI. Soft-medium hard water. Good light. CO2 probably at 40 or 50. Current. 50% water changes twice a week.

    What gives?

    View attachment 4743
     
    #1 Pikez, Sep 28, 2013
  2. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    If it helps...

    Tank size: 180 gal.
    Filtration: Two big canister filters + big corner sponge with powerhead. Regularly cleaned.
    Water: Los Angeles Co tap water + 50% RO.
    Ferts: 2 tsp KNO3, 1 tsp Pot Phosphate, 2 tsp Pot Sulfate, 1 tsp cal sulfate, 2 tbsp Mag sulfate, 1 tsp CSM+B, 1/8 tsp Fe gluc. Repeat 3X a week. So I'm ruling out ferts as issue.
    Water changes: 2X a week - 50%. Ruling out as issue.
    Husbandry: trimming, light gravel vac, scrubbing etc. Ruling out as issue.
    Algae: light green spot, moderate blue green, light green dust. Algae is not driving me insane but it is a problem, especially the BGA. Older leaves have lots of spot algae. Unsightly.
    Substrate: eco complete
    Light: Plenty of LEDs. Enough to make everything pearl. Ruling it out as issue.
    CO2 (potential culprit): pH controlled at 6.0 and kH is around 4.5, so I should have about a 100 ppm. I don't believe my CO2 levels. But everything is pearling after a couple of hours or light. I tossed drop checkers. Diffused thru 2 Sera 1000 reactors. If I drop my pH to 5.9 then Discus get clamped and stripey.
    Circulation: Have 5 power heads and 2 canister filter outlets creating circulation. I rule out insufficient circulation.
    Fish: Discus, angels, dwarf pikes and tetras - a bit crowded. Again, I rule out ferts as being an issue. But organic load may be an issue.

    I've read this site enough to know that it is likely the CO2. And I've gradually over the last couple of months lowered the pH/increased CO2 and circulation. Most plants are going nuts - Lud Cuba, Rot macrandra, Limno aromatica, Cambomba furcata are all exploding.

    If it helps, older Hygro stricta leaves are dropping a lot and have lots of holes in them. Attempting to attach image. I thought it was potassium, but I'm adding 6 teaspoons of Pot sulfate a week! Ruling it out. But open to suggestions. [attachment=1603:name]

    ammannia.jpg

    hygro.jpg
     
    #2 Pikez, Sep 28, 2013
  3. Solcielo lawrencia

    Solcielo lawrencia Member

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    It might help us out if you indicated approximate ppm of everything. Twisted new leaves could be an indicator of Ca deficiency... or nutrient excess causing Ca deficiency. Why only add 1 tsp of Ca to 2TB of Mg? Do you have a lot of Ca from the tap?
     
    #3 Solcielo lawrencia, Sep 28, 2013
  4. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Nutrients:
    N = 10 ppm 3X a week plus mind you I have Discus, Angels, Dwarf pikes and tetras, so there is a lot of N generated by them as well.
    P = 5 ppm 3X a week
    K = 20 ppm 3X a week - feels a little high but I was at 10 ppm for a long time and the hygro stricta leaves were getting holes in them and dropping off. Misdiagnosis?
    Fe = 0.54 ppm 3X a week.

    I have about 25-28 ppm of Ca in tap but dilute 50% with RO, so roughly 13 ppm from tap and only about 2 ppm 3X a week from Ca sulfate. So roughly 15 ppm Calcium. Enough? Not enough?

    My tap has 10-15 Magnesium. Again diluted 50% with RO it is, say 7 ppm. I add 5 ppm 3X a week. So about 12-13 ppm Mg. I have a roughly 1:1 Ca: Mg ratio. I had not done this calculation before, I'm glad you asked! The reason for my adding Mg was that I noticed a marked improvement in my plants when I began adding it a few months ago.
     
    #4 Pikez, Sep 29, 2013
  5. Solcielo lawrencia

    Solcielo lawrencia Member

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    The picture with the holes in them looks like a viral infection, not a nutrient issue. If it's a virus, it won't affect other species, just that one. I'd remove the infected plant by pulling the entire stem or stems, not cutting as this may release viral particles. But that's if it's a viral infection.
     
    #5 Solcielo lawrencia, Sep 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2013
  6. Solcielo lawrencia

    Solcielo lawrencia Member

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    Sounds like good levels to me out of the tap.
     
    #6 Solcielo lawrencia, Sep 29, 2013
  7. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I like the viral infection theory - with 20 ppm K 3X a week, I cant imagine it is K deficiency...especially given most other plants are thriving.

    Blending tap with RO to lower KH for sensitive plants and to keep wild caught Discus happy.
     
    #7 Pikez, Sep 29, 2013
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Not in LA, even with 50% RO, impossible.

    I've never seen a confirmed Ca++ deficient aquatic plant, ever.

    I have KH's and GH in the 1-2 degree ranges. Few folks have softer water unless they are 100% RO and do not add anything for Ca++.
    You will see Mg deficiencies long before if you ultra low GH.

    This is CO2 or a transitional planting. Since one stem is doing well, we can focus on that.

    I would leave the plant in there and then trim off the top, new side shoots will form after 1-3 weeks.
    Ammannia is weird this way. I also grew it equally well in very hard Santa Barbara CA water. KH 11, GH 24. Got as huge as it does in my 180 which has lower Ca++ levels than the OP's 180.
    It's a squirrely plant for most people, but once you get a few tops growing, it's a 100% weed.
     
    #8 Tom Barr, Sep 29, 2013
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Not in LA, even with 50% RO, impossible.

    I've never seen a confirmed Ca++ deficient aquatic plant, ever.

    I have KH's and GH in the 1-2 degree ranges. Few folks have softer water unless they are 100% RO and do not add anything for Ca++.
    You will see Mg deficiencies long before if you ultra low GH.

    This is CO2 or a transitional planting. Since one stem is doing well, we can focus on that.

    I would leave the plant in there and then trim off the top, new side shoots will form after 1-3 weeks.
    Ammannia is weird this way. I also grew it equally well in very hard Santa Barbara CA water. KH 11, GH 24. Got as huge as it does in my 180 which has lower Ca++ levels than the OP's 180.
    It's a squirrely plant for most people, but once you get a few tops growing, it's a 100% weed.
     
    #9 Tom Barr, Sep 29, 2013
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Which species of Dwarf pike? I love em, but they'd eat every shrimp I have........hummm.........that might be a good way to get rid of them, then remove the C compressiceps.

    You can rule out pretty all the environmentals, but sometimes CO2 can get you still........but you do have one healthy stem, no?
    Trim the tops off the others, maybe down a little past the twisted parts, you should get new growth if everything else is good in about 1-3 weeks. Look for side shoots.
     
    #10 Tom Barr, Sep 29, 2013
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Which species of Dwarf pike? I love em, but they'd eat every shrimp I have........hummm.........that might be a good way to get rid of them, then remove the C compressiceps.

    You can rule out pretty all the environmentals, but sometimes CO2 can get you still........but you do have one healthy stem, no?
    Trim the tops off the others, maybe down a little past the twisted parts, you should get new growth if everything else is good in about 1-3 weeks. Look for side shoots.
     
    #11 Tom Barr, Sep 29, 2013
  12. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Will trim the top...but even before I read this, I noticed today that there were a few side shoots coming up nicely.

    For good measure, cranked up CO2 a notch, trimming, vacuuming, water change and a couple of tsp of Ca suflate with fers.

    Dwarf pikes: regani and notophthalmus. Will PM you.
     
    #12 Pikez, Sep 30, 2013
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Ah, you are fine then. Sometimes new plants will stunt on the tips and then side shoots come out, common with this species, but 2 months later, they are growign like mad.
    Many folks with CO2 issues blame K+, Ca++ on this plant. I falsified these claims about 10+ years ago now.

    There might be other reasons, but I could only speculate CO2.
    When I matched and exceeded the claims values, I NEVER once got the same results as those making the claims. Not once.
    Not only that, but our entire local club had been dosign excess K+ and had low Ca for well, several years, one won the AGA contest with massive K+ and ultra low Ca++.
    And they had a massive stand as the central theme of Ammannia gracilius.

    I need a 240 gallon and up to really allow this weed to bloom nicely.
    There are a couple of smaller types, not sure if it's a morph of A senegalensis or A gracilius.
    Grows slower and smaller.
     
    #13 Tom Barr, Sep 30, 2013
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Ah, you are fine then. Sometimes new plants will stunt on the tips and then side shoots come out, common with this species, but 2 months later, they are growign like mad.
    Many folks with CO2 issues blame K+, Ca++ on this plant. I falsified these claims about 10+ years ago now.

    There might be other reasons, but I could only speculate CO2.
    When I matched and exceeded the claims values, I NEVER once got the same results as those making the claims. Not once.
    Not only that, but our entire local club had been dosign excess K+ and had low Ca for well, several years, one won the AGA contest with massive K+ and ultra low Ca++.
    And they had a massive stand as the central theme of Ammannia gracilius.

    I need a 240 gallon and up to really allow this weed to bloom nicely.
    There are a couple of smaller types, not sure if it's a morph of A senegalensis or A gracilius.
    Grows slower and smaller.
     
    #14 Tom Barr, Sep 30, 2013
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Those in doubt, here's my evidence:
    High K+(40-50ppm), and low Ca++, about 5ppm or so.

    [​IMG]
     
    #15 Tom Barr, Oct 1, 2013
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Those in doubt, here's my evidence:
    High K+(40-50ppm), and low Ca++, about 5ppm or so.

    [​IMG]
     
    #16 Tom Barr, Oct 1, 2013
  17. Solcielo lawrencia

    Solcielo lawrencia Member

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    Can high salt levels induce curling of the leaves?
     
    #17 Solcielo lawrencia, Oct 1, 2013
  18. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Tom - yup, my stems were side shoots off a giant, honking General Sherman looking thing growing in a 750-gal at a store in Signal Hill, CA.
     
    #18 Pikez, Oct 2, 2013
  19. reef12

    reef12 Member

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    My leaves on a plant are starting that also.

    Strange really, we have to figure that out.

    Wonder what it is?

    Here is mine.

    [​IMG]

    Can see the tips of two leaves starting to be bad and curled.

    Jeff
     
    #19 reef12, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2013
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