Trouble in Plantland

Overstocked??

Even by my standards (or lack thereof), you are overstocked.

Sixteen Cardinal Tetras, Paracheirodon axelrodi, you might just get away with in your tank on their own with really good water conditions. The cardinal Tetras really prefer higher temperatures, low GH, low pH water, you can acclimatize them to higher pH over time but it leaves them with little in the way of reserves.

Your Bushy-nosed pleco, assuming, Ancistrus temminckii will stay under five inches (12 centameters), with good overlap with Cardinal Tetras water conditions.

The Crystal Red shrimp, Caridina cantonensis sp. "Red,” tend to prefer cooler, by tropical standards, water. I am aware people keep them in warm water; my experience is they thrive in cooler water.

Assuming you have a “true” SAE, Crossocheilus Siamensis, you have “jumper,” a true little acrobat, a very good choice for algae control, but also known for floor patrol. Make sure you are intentionally feeding this little critter and not depending solely on algae in the tank. The issue that I am unsure of is the compatibility of the SAE with your Bushy-nose, many of “algae-eater” class are highly territorial and with larger pleco’s anyway quite vicious with competitors.

The dwarfs Galaxy Rasbora, Microrasbora sp. “Galaxy,” are a cooler water fish, beautiful, fascinating, lively critters.

Therefore, my critter recommendations for what they are worth; while 16 Cardinal Tetras are pushing it and a larger tank would be nice, I think you can get away with keeping the Cardinal Tetras and the Bushy-nose pleco in the twenty gallon tank, by the way, a really nice looking tank.

You have lots of water movement and filtration, keep it clean, not so clean that you harm the bacteria.

The Galaxy Rasbora, Crystal shrimp and the SAE to another tank. If the ten gallon tank is still available that would make a nice, at least interim home.

My inclination would be to move the Assassin snails as well, bio-load issue principally. Remember to feed these critters, maybe grow some snails for them.

CO2, good idea, would start now (or in the morning).

More on plants if you are interested.

Biollante

 

Hi,
Cladophora is typically due to a combination of poor CO2 and insufficient nutrient levels. BGA is typically due to low nitrates and BGA is poor or unstable CO2.

Flourish alone will not address the nutrient issue as it's a trace mix only. You'll need to add NPK. The CO2 issue is obvious and it sounds like you'll fix this, although you may want to consider supplementing Excel along with your DIY CO2.

Instead of biweekly water changes you may have better success with shorter intervals such as weekly changes.

There is also no need to use RO unless there is a known toxicity issue with your tap water. I'd also eliminate the pH buffer as well since this is unnecessary. This makes life less complicated.

Cheers,

 

No Slight Intended

Biollante

Sorry I did not mean to slight your Dwarf Chain Loaches, Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki, no doubt my lack of experience with them. From what I have read, the Dwarf Chain Loach should work and play well with the Cardinal Tetras. However, each source I have looked at recommends at least five in a group. Again, I think this really strains the limits of a 20-gallon tank. They also have, at least a reputation as snail killers.

I am not a fan of Hikari Algae Wafers; I think there much better brands around. Yes, veggies are good as is Nori, the seaweed for sushi.

A TDS meter can’t as far as I know cannot give you a direct reading of GH. A TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter reads, well, total dissolved solids.

I think dosing dry fertilizers are a good idea, make sure you are including trace above reconstituting the RO/DI water.

Use whatever mix works for your aquarium for the diy CO2. When you mix the water for your tank, mix a couple of extra liters.

If the stuff in the tap is killing the yeast, I think you have a problem with tap water and I don’t say that very often.

Biollante

 

If you are thinking of keeping the SAE, you should know that they also grow big. IMO too big for a 20-gallon. And mine grew fast, from only an inch or so at purchase to 4 inches within months. At which time I didn't wait for them to get to 6 inches but trotted them off to the LFS.

 

Dirty filters are a known cause of BGA. The trapped dirt decays resulting in ammonia which can trigger the BGA. Therefore a dirty filter is inefficient thereby doing the very same thing that you expressed fear about cleaning it.

As Biollante mentioned, GH is a direct measurement of the concentration of Calcium and Magnesium in the water - which is only partially related to TDS. TDS is a direct measurement of the electrical conductivity of the water caused by ALL things dissolved in it (including other liquids by the way). Therefore, there is no direct correlation between your TDS reading and the GH of the water. GH can only be measured by a competent GH test kit, and even then it does not distinguish between the relative levels of Ca and Mg.

Yeah, this is a minefield and as I mentioned to someone else on another thread, your reliance on using test kit readings to determine your dosing level is one of the direct causes of your algal blooms. As discussed BGA can be caused by dirty filter so that needs to be fixed in order to eliminate it as a possible cause. The other prevalent cause of BGA as stated is poor NO3 levels. One would think that with your stocking levels low nitrate should not be a problem, so in a way this points to the dirty filter. You also measured NO3 and got a low number. Hobby grade test kits are, in general, untrustworthy so I absolutely don't trust your NO3 reading even though it points to low NO3. Isn't that convoluted? This is the nature of test kits - they make you run around in pointless circles. If you added NO3 and didn't see any improvement, does this mean that NO3 is ineffective? Absolutely not, especially if you were using a NO3 test kit to determine the dosing levels. It can easily be that you simply didn't add enough NO3, were paranoid about the levels, used unreliable NO3 test kit readings and as a result, have absolutely no idea what the actual NO3 levels are.

Again, Cladophora, doesn't lie, even if your test kit lies like a dog, so there is at least an implication that NO3 is low.

Same story goes here. FYI PO4 test kits are among the most notorious liars, second only to Pinocchio. It's entirely possible that you do in fact have 1.0 ppm of PO4 as the fish food typically contains some level of PO4, but you can bet the farm that the PO4 test kit is not giving you an accurate number. The Cladophora is telling you otherwise.

If you were using Tap water I could be convinced that 1.0ppm was actually available since this is standard practice for municipal water boards to add PO4 - but you are using RO, which has zero PO4 and zero NO3 by default so it's highly unlikely that PO4 will just spontaneously appear out of nowhere.

Well, I mean, Flourish Trace doesn't care why you use it. It's a trace element mix and if you add it to your water you are adding trace elements to your water. Of course, it's so dilute that it could easily be that whatever amount you are adding is insufficient, further exacerbating the Clado.

Fair enough. If Excel is not an option then you'll have to be aware that your margin of error for DIY CO2 is slim so one has to pay strict attention to keeping the proper mixtures and so forth.

Here is Downoi (Pogostemon helferi) when fed copious quantities of NO3, PO4, CO2 and Excel:

Yes, I totally understand. It's simply that you have to understand the implications of poor water change schedules as it relates to algae. The purpose of water changes is to remove organic waste. A high organic waste content is bad for plants and encourages algal blooms. Water changes also removes algal spores, which definitely turn into algal blooms so you are not doing your tank any favors by skipping water changes. As long as you understand that there will be one less mystery involved in your problem solving.

Well, it'd be difficult for anyone to troubleshoot your tap water from afar, but normally, tap water is better for most plants that RODI could ever dream of being. I mean, RODI certainly wasn't good enough to keep your algae at bay. Clado is a signal that the water is rubbish and the plants are starving. I've used tap water for 20 years and have never had a problem due to tap water, so there's nothing intrinsically great about RODI. The minute that you start to add CO2, the pH will become unstable. Unstable pH in this context is completely meaningless. I've never had a problem due to unstable pH. I have had tremendous difficulties with unstable CO2 however. One needs to pay attention to CO2 and forget pH. Bizarre, but true.

OK, here is another point of view: Could it be that the statement is there on the Kent bottles in order to increase revenue for Kent? Lets think about it for a second; Alkalinity is associated with the water's content of CO3 and HCO3. You can accomplish this with baking soda, which is tons cheaper. Depending on your tap water alkalinity you can just add a bit of tap water.

A huge problem in this hobby is that there are so many factors affect success and it's not easy control the variables well enough to correlate cause and effect. It's easy to say "I did this and such and such happened" when in fact the two were completely unrelated. It's also easy to focus on the wrong thing at the expense of other, more important things. Such is the case with the pH obsession. The pH in your tank never really needs to be stable unless you are breeding fish or if there is a specific goal in mind. None of these goals would ever be consistent with plant growth performance, because plants don't care about pH or pH stability. Neither do the fish quite frankly. So many people expend energy on inconsequential parameters that they miss the boat. This often results in frustration. There could have been plenty of reasons why the plants "appeared" to respond better to RODI water than to tap. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't something wrong with your tap - there could be high levels of herbicide or some toxin that is below the threshold for human safety but still affects the plants. I don't know that. What I am saying is that RODI is not a prerequisite for healthy plant growth. There are only a handful of plants that would do better in RODI water, but the vast majority could care less about RODI.

It may be necessary to rethink the strategy a bit. Think about a better, more consistent dosing scheme using dry ferts (especially if you will inject CO2). At least contemplate a better maintenance schedule involving water changes, filter cleaning and so forth. Consider spending less attention on pH. Consider trying a 10% tap water addition during the water change and slowly increase the percentage over the next few months to demonstrate some evidence of a correlation between poor growth and tap water.

Here is a tank that hasn't seen RO in a decade. Strictly tap water and most recently London tap (which has a horrible reputation). It is kept scrupulously clean. It never misses a water change. Plants are routinely fluffed, preened and trimmed. High flow rates and strict attention to distribution patterns are maintained. CO2 is kept as high and as stable as possible. the tank was dosed with a minimum of 60ppm per week NO3 and 10ppm per week PO4, plus whatever was already in the tap. The GH was typically 15-18 deg (262-315 ppm) and the TDS often exceeded 700 microsiemens as a result of the huge nutrient additions. So this demonstrates that there is nothing inherently wrong with tap and that we perhaps should at least look for other possible causes when faced with poor performance.


Cheers,

 

Well Said!

Well said!

Nice tank!

Biollante

 

Didn't I Mention...

Glad to hear your rearranging your livestock, oh yeah, didn’t I mention the SAE growing to six-inch part? They do grow quite quickly and unlike the mislabeled SAE’s they actually shoal, they do fuss and fight, but as far as I can tell, none seems to suffer permanent injury. They are a lot of fun. Folks not familiar with their sleeping habits often assume they are dead or dying.

I used to like Hikari as well; a while back, I was introduced to this bunch Aquatic Eco-Systems: Aquarium Supplies - Food Sticks, hadn’t given it much thought till I saw Tom Barr’s comments on the Hikari versus good stuff. http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/6080-what-kind-nutrient-shortage-2.html?highlight=spirulina

I have never measured for, or until now, worried about the salt content of Nori. Thanks, one more thing to worry about! All kidding aside my fish love Nori, big treat.

I am going to acquire a group of those Dwarf Chain Loaches, they really do seem special.

Poor Pygmy Corys, I have noticed a failure to thrive with some of the Cory’s, I have put it down to over breeding, though most of mine I have bred here, I have been fortunate in trading for robust lines. One of the LFS’s I deal with has been having problems with and now limits the lines of Corys they handle. I am gearing up to breed a couple of lines, no Pygmy’s, but I worry I may simply run into, or add to the same problem.

Yes, we plants love to be “fluffed and preened,” especially the aquatic varieties. You will, should you try find, that many terrestrial plants like to be “fluffed and preened.” I suspect (as in, can’t cite, don’t really know for sure) that in addition to keeping things clean and nice, improving circulation and light to deeper areas, that because aquatic plants have a Prandtl boundary, an area of undisturbed water around each leaf, the active movement may help move gases and nutrients through that ‘unstirred’ area. I think (can’t cite or recall off hand) the Prandtl boundary is the principal reason we jack the CO2 so high.

Many plants while adjusting to their new homes, shed and/or “melt”; in particular plants grown “emerged,” that we “immerse,” which in fact I believe to be the majority.

I use and have used Kent products and Flourish I have liked them, I think they are wonderful products for what they are (you gotta know a BUT is coming), but they and most products are a bad source of information, the TDS meter measuring GH is a great example.

This is just me; I would likely doubly once again the Flourish trace you are using, especially if you are not using some kind of electrolyte booster or RO/DI water reconstituter (not sure there is such a word).

Again, me, I would go with at a quarter teaspoon KNO3, me, in real life, would likely go a bit more than that

As long as we are at it, I would mix in a half teaspoon of Epsom Salt, MgSO4, and if you have access to Fleet brand enemas, two or three milliliters for good measure.

While you are out buying the Epsom Salt and Fleet Enemas (oh, the knowing looks you will get with that combination) buy yourself some sugar a two liter bottle of something you like and some yeast, the cheap stuff will do, until you get a proper system.

Do the above three times a week dosing your increased level of trace, get CSM+B as soon as possible and you’ll be at a good starting point to begin crying and carrying on about all the trimming and primping and preening you have to you have to do.

Change half the water at least once a week; we are talking only ten gallons.

Being a reef person, I am assuming you mix, aerate, and generally beef-up your RO/DI mixture prior to adding the water to the tank. Right?

Biollante

 

Hi Myka,

'Fluffing' is simply gently running your fingers through the various plants. This helps untangle stems and rosettes, and removes any detritus on the leaves. Old leaves can also be removed in this way as they will break off with the contact..

Just go easy and be gentle.........some leaves can be rubbed gently between the fingers to remove any algae so the leaf may be saved.....

This can be done several times a week as needed and helps acclimate the fish to you being in the tank.......

You have gotten excellent advice so far and if followed will help you and your tank in many ways.

I note that you immediately went back to your test kits after Ceg's long response. Have these at least been calibrated against a KNOWN reference solution? If not, the accuracy of them is suspect at best.

Basing decisions on faulty or incorrect data is an invitation to issues. I would toss the kits for now and concentrate on observing how the plants respond to your changes. If they have new algae free growth, good leaf and stem formation, etc than you are on the right track.

Keep at it and be patient as well It may take 4-6 weeks for the tank to really start to get going based on how much the plants have to adapt and regenerate.

I personally would keep all the cardinals together....16 in a 20 is not too many.

I have temporarily kept >200 in a 45 gal quarantine tank for 6-8 weeks. However, I did a 10% daily water change and had good filtration and a mature tank. I would not do this long term

Hope this helps.

 

Has The Tap Water Killed Anyone?

The oddity of the whole things is that the higher level of fertilizers (around here “we” include CO2 as a Macro) actually tend to eliminate or mitigate algal blooms including green water.

Seriously, for now forget the test kits; it is fine for working out how things work if you are that kind of masochist (like me ) it leads to no good, endless debates, wrong conclusions, drawn from irrefutable evidence. Thousands of dollars in test equipment, consultants bills, and in the end, you dose your plants based on what you see, smell, feel and for some, taste. And, 27 people tell you; “you are wrong, nuts, delusional or just flat lying.” While you stare in wonder at these absolutely gorgeous plant and critters you raised or propagated.

This thing with the yeast apparently killed by the tap water seriously concerns me. No family member, animals or such-like have been killed by this stuff, right?

We are dissolving in ¾ to a cup of sugar into say 1 ¼ to 1 1/2 quarts (or liters) of water, then making sure the temperature of the water is under 110 F (43 C) mixing in ¼ to a teaspoon of yeast, giving the whole thing a good shake then capping, right?

Most of use KH2PO4 instead of Fleet Enemas, it is however a good quick source of PO4. The KH2PO4 is available from the same folks that will happily sell you the other dry fertz. I like Planted Aquarium Fertilizer - Home about 1/16 teaspoon, in place of the Fleet stuff. You are no fun.

The plants are adapting, get the dosing schedules going, the CO2, they ought to take off. For CO2 if you have to, using tubing and an air stone (a straw can work) and blow into the tank, I know it is right up there with the Fleet Enemas; and let this one be our little secret! Actually, it is amazingly effective and I now have the instrumentation to demonstrate the efficacy.

Most of all have fun!

Biollante

 

Whew, No Fatalites

Yes, Ro or DI water is poor for almost any use until we build them up. However, all the stuff you are putting in should qualify as building up the water. I am perplexed!

Glad to hear there have been no fatalities, makes me think the tap water is not the problem. Are there any odd odors associated with the water? Are you using a water conditioner, something that removes or binds Chlorine and/or chloramines?

Try ¾ cup of sugar, mixed into a quart of tap water heated to 150 F. After the sugar has gone into solution, pour mixture into your bioreactor (the two liter pop bottle, usually). Add a two pints of Tap temperature water, once the mixture is under 110 F, add ½ teaspoon of yeast, I am not familiar with your brand, cover the top and give it a good shake. Humor me. This should be going within an hour or two.

For now let the kid in you that just wants a cool tank, plants that grow and fish you don’t kill, overrule the scientist in you. There is plenty of time for the other later.

You do need to get CO2 in that tank and obviously pressurized CO2 is the most convenient, but it has its own problem as well. Ultimately, CO2 is CO2 and for us CO2 is effectively a macronutrient.

Biollante

 

How Do You Know What ...?

Swamp smell with chlorine (heavy smell?), tastes like crap, now we may be getting somewhere.

Are you on a major water system? Which one?

Think of yourself as a wine connoisseur of water and use your best descriptive words for what you taste and smell crap, is hard for me to analyze, so many kinds of crap, though you may be closer to the truth then you care to know.

Are using a dechlorinator and if so which one?

If you don't have any electrolytes to reconstitute the RO, go ahead and use about ½ teaspoon of molasses, cut back to a shy 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda and add ½ teaspoon of Epsom Salt to the 1 ½ quart of RO and shake, stir, mix vigorously to aerate. Then make the mixture for the yeast.

See what happens.

Biollante

 

Definitely use the Kent RO Right.

You must get CO2 into the tank, soonest.

The pressurized system will make your life easier and the primary problem is CO2.

Just wipe up the diatoms no big deal.

Catch you later.

Biollante