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Too much CO2 with DIY

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by nikelodeon79, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. nikelodeon79

    nikelodeon79 Junior Poster

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    My fish were super stressed when I started injecting CO2. They were off color and not very active. As soon as the CO2 started running out, they started improving and now that its gone they're perfectly fine.

    I used the following mixture: 1 teaspoon of yeast; 2 cups of sugar; ½ teaspoon of Baking Soda; 1.5 liters of water.

    I have read that if I increased the sugar and/or decreased the yeast, the mixture would produce less CO2 but would last longer. Can anyone recommend a better mixture?

    I have ordered a drop checker and am thinking of holding off on CO2 until it arrives.

    Also, should I run the airstone all of the time rather than just when the lights are off? I have an Eheim 2215 but it creates very little surface agitation. The tank is 26 gallons.
     
  2. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    I really think you have low O2, your CO2 is what it is - yeast gas it off at a good rate. If you can, increase your surface water flow this should increase the levels of Oxygen. Well then, the bubbler is a good idea. You might not need to run it all the time, but most of the night. Reduce your CO2 dosing at night, if you can (think Duetto).

    What yeast do you use nickel?
    One teaspoon might get your culture up and running. Using less, say 1/2 a teaspoon, would work too. It should build up pressure, ≮ 8psi is nice and steady.

    More sugar?
    I think we both like sugar, but yeast can only use so much due to the build up of wast (ethanol). You don't need to add more sugar - try less. I could get away with using less my own self. Glucose —> Carbon dioxide + Alcohol + Energy

    ½ teaspoon of Baking Soda.
    Baking soda is often added to a culture to keep it from crashing,:confused:
    Yet a pH level of 5.5 would be considered fine for some yeast cultures using say, Baker's yeast. Again, less baking soda, maybe 1/8 tsp - just as helpful.

    Improve your water flow. Really, it is so important. Add a powerhead to increase the flow if you can.

    Q. Is your yeast culture in water coming from your water softening unit?
    • Use some water from your tank as a replacement.
      If, that is, you've bypassed the water softening unit for your water changes - right?.​


    edit - CO2 can cause problems if administered haphazardly. Something folks with pressurized getups hope to avoid.
     
    #2 Tug, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2012
  3. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    1.5 liters of water.

    What he said. Sorry for the double post.
     
    #3 Tug, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2012
  4. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    1.5 liters of water.

    For a longer lasting fermentation adjust the size container. Bigger container, same amount of yeast. Keep the buffer and sugar amounts proportional, more or less and get yourself a 2 gallon container.
     
  5. nikelodeon79

    nikelodeon79 Junior Poster

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    We're going to be setting up the Duetto to diffuse the CO2 this weekend. So... I can simply turn the flow down on the Duetto to decrease the CO2 production at night? Won't I be risking an messy blow up of my 2 liter bottle?

    Right now, I have a long bubble stone that is on a timer that turns on an hour before my lights go off and turns off an hour before my lights come on.

    The way the spraybar of the Eheim is set up, it's several inches below the surface... I could probably rig something up to raise it up so it's disturbing the surface more... otherwise maybe I can see if my dad can follow the instructions re: making the Duetto a surface skimmer. :) He's going to be visiting this weekend to help me with some projects.

    I use Red Star active dry yeast... the kind in the little packets. I think I made a mistake in that when i opened the last packet, I left it sitting on the counter, open, and didn't put it in an airtight container in the fridge. I'm assuming that one is no good anymore and I should use a new packet with this next batch.

    I was considering getting some vintners yeast instead... I heard that was better? The article I read said it is liquid and therefore more difficult to work with, but I found some on Amazon that's dry yeast and not terribly expensive. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TOEEFG/?tag=barrreport-21

    This is good to hear... as I was mixing up the last batch I was thinking to myself how expensive it could get using all that sugar for three tanks!

    Okay, sounds good. My ph does lower considerably with CO2 injection. I got my GH and KH tests in: KH was 8 and GH was 4, but this was after the CO2 production had slowed down considerably.

    I've never used a powerhead before... do they work to improve surface agitation? Or will just increasing the water flow do the trick?

    Actually, all of the water (including tank water) is going through the softener. We're working on getting that fixed this weekend, too. We have to pick up the water storage containers (rubbermaid trash cans) and a pump, but likely can't afford one strong enough to get the water from downstairs (next to the 75g tank) all the way upstairs to the 26g (approximately 100 feet), so we'll likely just pick up a pump strong enough to get the water from the containers to the 75g, and when doing changes on the 26, we'll lug buckets up the stairs.

    I suspect that a lot of my issues are due to the fact that the tank water contains water softened water, and hopefully things will be remedied soon.


    I have a couple of 4 liter bottles. I will use those, instead. I was planning on using multiple bottles on this tank, but now am leery after seeing the fish struggle with just one bottle. Do you think it would be okay to set up one 4 liter bottle diffusing through a Duetto and one 4 liter bottle diffusing through the inline diffuser (the ISTA mix max)?

    Thanks again for your help!
     
  6. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    True.
    Turn the Duetto off at night.
    Do not, keep yeast under pressure.
    • At a ridiculous 35 psi, you're killing them.
    Good,
    try keeping the air stone a quarter to a third of the way down the tank, about 4" under the water's surface.


    Any powerhead will work by improving flow. Something like, another Duetto, as is, set-up just the way the add says.
    Or prop style, a nano Koralia powerhead would set you back less then a regulator. Much less
    :apathy:
    No; yes, sort of.
    Oxygen good, CO2 good.

    One 4 litter bottle of yeastiness (~8psi) is plenty of CO2, for now. Being able to add more is a luxury, high light (70 μmol/m2s), add another generator, EI, water rippling along the surface, luxurious plant growth, regular pruning - right? :encouragement:
    edit- I strongly recommend you use bulkhead fittings to attach the air line to the caps on the 4 liter bottle.

    Actually, yes - improved water flow. Think of that treadmill, the dog in the Jetson's cartoon, oh never mind.

    Up for his favorite thing to do I'm sure. :glee:
    In this case, dad, start by repurposing all the filter sponges,
    everything but the motor housing and the 50's housing attachment is removed.
    Your plants and bacteria will filter the water.
     
    #6 Tug, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2012
  7. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Champagne yeast continue to produce CO2 for a long time. I see nothing wrong with that.
    Here it is, the same thing for only $0.85 / EACH; http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/champagne-1118-lalvin-5g/4,7850.html

    I also add Fermaid K after two weeks or so.
     
  8. nikelodeon79

    nikelodeon79 Junior Poster

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    Just an update: I got my GH and KH tests in, and tested water both from a softened water tap and an unsoftened water tap. PH and KH were the same from both: 7.6 and 6, respectively.

    GH of unsoftened water: 17
    GH of softened water: 1 (water turned color with one drop)

    Interestingly enough, the GH of my tank water (taken from an softened tap) ranges from 3-4 (3 in my tanks with playsand and flourite sand, 4 in my 75g with coal slag substrate).
     
  9. Snivi

    Snivi Junior Poster

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    Hi,

    For diy CO2 i use de folowing recipe :
    Dissolve 150g of sugar in 100ml of very hot water.
    use a small quantity of water to dissolve 12g of gelly.

    Mixe the gelly and the sugar sirup befor it is cold.

    Put this in a 2l coca cola bottle and let cool 24h in the fridge.

    When u want to use add 200ml of water and 5g of yast.

    The CO2 production start after 1 day.

    Sorry for my bad english.
     
  10. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Thanks for the update nikelodeon79. You should be able to use the water from your aquarium.

    Snivi, Your english is just fine.

    My update;
    I am looking at extending the length of my fermentation (both with and without the use of yeast nutrients). It would seam, Fermaid K and most other nutrients can be/are added at the same time the yeast are added to the sugar water. I have also used Fermaid K after a few weeks when/if I have a stuck or sluggish fermentation with great success. On the other hand, I once just left the yeast generator exposed to the air over night without adding anything and this also brought back the yeast with equally good results. I have not tried adding more yeast but that should also work.

    The last fermentation recipe I used included sugar plus the leftover yeast flocculant from the previous fermentation and lasted 30 days before I needed to replace it. The sugar was just dumped into the generator and the water came right out of the aquarium and was sloshed around a bit with the sugar. Yeast was proofed, then added and I left off the top to the yeast generator for two hours before it was attached to the diffuser that night - CO2 the next day.

    I will try to recreate some of these findings concerning O2 but thought I should briefly mention the importance of O2. Oxygen is used to strengthen the cell wall at early yeast development. This is an important consideration. When boiling water it would be a good idea to aerate it heavily after it cools and before adding any yeast.
     
    #10 Tug, Apr 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2012
  11. Snivi

    Snivi Junior Poster

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    yes o2 makes realy faster reproduction of yeast.
    But yeast need no o2 in orther to produce CO2 by breaking sugar in alcool + 2co2 + o2
     
  12. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    During the initial phase of fermentation dissolved oxygen will help the yeast cells to multiply rapidly, giving the fermentation a good kick start. But yeast also use oxygen during this initial stage to produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids for cell membrane formation, to provide protection against the alcohol toxicity near the end of fermentation and against the osmotic pressures from the initial sugar levels in our fermentation.

    Of course, right now this is speculation on my part until I can gather more evidence. But from what I've read, during the initial fermentation, dissolved oxygen is an essential element of a successful fermentation.

    IMO, it is one of the reasons people who use tap water complain of sluggish fermentations. Of course temperature, old or dead yeast, high levels of chlorine, too much Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and/or the addition of fruit jellies containing food preservatives like Potassium sorbate would also be reason for concern.
     
  13. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Epsom Salt?

    Hi Tug,

    My understanding is that Ethanol is a toxic waste product; the alcohol concentration becomes too toxic for the yeast to tolerate.
    :rolleyes:
    • I am pretty sure that 3% alcohol is the point where yeast production becomes sluggish.
    • I have read (understood?) it is the alcohol concentration inhibiting the function of various enzymes.

    I understand Magnesium to be the limiting nutrient.
    :)

    According to Magnesium Limitation and Its Role in Apparent Toxicity of Ethanol during Yeast Fermentation adding 0.5-mM Magnesium prolongs the exponential growth phase.

    • Perhaps 0.13-gram Epsom salt per liter (0.127-gram actual).
    • Never tried it, but...

    I suspect many of those fermentation aids principally add Magnesium, a little protein and maybe some pH buffer.

    Biollante
     
  14. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    I think there are some strains used in fermenting alcohol that are more tolerant of ethanol. Champagne yeast, I have seen recommended over the usual baker's yeast.
     
  15. Snivi

    Snivi Junior Poster

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    Maybe i dident understand your post biolant.

    It dont look to be a good idea to ad Magnesium in your CO2 production batch.

    Biollant in your Studies :
    According to Magnesium Limitation and Its Role in Apparent Toxicity of Ethanol during Yeast Fermentation adding 0.5-mM Magnesium prolongs the exponential growth phase.

    You can read at end of page 977 that It took less time ( 48 hours ) for the magnesium suplemented yeast to end the production and that the controle one need 72 hours to do the same.
    They all end with the same level of alcool 12%.

    For me the maximum level of alcool you can produce is geneticaly coded for a given strains of yeast.

    To produce CO2 for a long Time the good solution seems to feed sugar slowly.
    You can use a gel media as i do ( my bathe produce CO2 for 1 month or 2 ).
    otherwise use a peristaltic pump if you can find a inexpressive one.
     
  16. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Baker's Yeast Every 2-Weeks Forever!

    Hi,

    Yes-continuing exponential growth indeed probably means a shorter total life but a more consistent rate of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production.

    I guess I was looking more at Tug's comments about sluggishness of fermentation that we see as reduced CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production. In any case, adjusting amounts of sugar, yeast, size of reactor, temperature, along with whatever else keeps our yeasty-beastys happy will determine the longevity of the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production.

    Personally, I rotate my reactors every two weeks anyway; baker’s yeast and sugar are cheap.
    :cool:

    Biollante
     
  17. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    This is a good example of the wall I am hitting. Higher rates of CO2 and longer fermentations are not all-inclusive as I first thought. The trade off seams to be higher CO2 production vs. longer fermentations. Great paper on Mg Bio and if I remember correctly you have other reasons for using baker's yeast other then being cheap, not that there's anything wrong with that.

    I guess the question is, if ethanol production ends after 48 - 72 hours, what is allowing the yeast to produce CO2 for the 2 weeks - 2 months we keep them.

    Snivi, I don't mean to sound smart-alecky but there is a big difference between (sic) "1 month or 2". For a 2 liter soda bottle to provide useful levels of CO2 for 2 months, is extraordinary. Even 1 month is exceptional.
     
  18. Snivi

    Snivi Junior Poster

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    the more you put yeast the quicker the réaction end because 8degre alcool kill the baker yeast or all the sugar as been used.
    The yeast only multiply each 3 hours when they can use oxygène and éven slower without.
     
  19. Snivi

    Snivi Junior Poster

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    just give a try the recipe i give using gelly and u will be disappointed when you only provide CO2 for 1 month ;-)
    Off course it dont give you more CO2 but less CO2 is provided during more time.
    The recipe i give is used for a 30l tank at aproximatively 1 bulbe / 1 second.

    30l is 9gal
     
    #19 Snivi, Apr 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2012
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