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Too little O2? or too much CO2? Please help me make sense of this.

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by ShadowMac, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    Today I observed my blue ram breathing at the surface. My furcata rainbows often do this and i have chalked it up to CO2 intolerance. However, I have recently begun using an airstone at night to eliminate the white film that develops between water changes (works great by the way, no need for protein skimmer). Anyways, when I saw the ram breathing at the top I turned on the air stone, within 5 to 10 minutes fish behavior improved and the furcata rainbows were even more active. My pH meter didn't show any change in pH leading me to believe I did not air out much CO2, but rather improved O2 concentrations. My bubble rate was the same as the previous day and the ram did not behave this way. Water change was two days ago. Could O2 be depleting over time? My ram was much more active this evening after leaving the airstone on for a couple hours. pH changed by this point, but my CO2 had also turned off for most of that time.

    What do people think? Is this too much CO2 or not enough O2? I see plenty of pearling during the day.

    If it is O2, which I am suspecting, how do I increase my concentrations?

    *wet/dry filter
    *turn on the airstone periodically throughout the day?

    Any other thoughts?

    Thank you
     
  2. pat w

    pat w Member

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    I use a surface skimmer, one of the add on types you can get from Fluval, Tom Aquatics or others. It'll clear that film off, too. That alone will increase O2 transfer.

    Pat
     
  3. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    All The Agitation; CO2, O2 Who Knew?

    Hi,

    In the case in the original post it is apparently a lack of oxygen. :gw

    Adding CO2 does not displace O2 in our aquaria. :rolleyes:

    As Pat points out skimming is one method of increasing O2, though removing the bio-film itself may help, the skimmer has the net effect of surface agitation. :)

    It is the “trick” those of us who like still surface water but wish to maintain highly oxygenated water use.

    Surface agitation is what the air stone accomplishes.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Biollante
     
  4. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    If you want to use high CO2 then make sure you also have high O2. Since the situation improved by adding O2, the O2 level isn't at it's maximum. I've seen people kill fish at 25 ppm of CO2 just because of low O2 levels. With high O2 levels, 40 ppm of CO2 is very well possible.

    regards,
    dutchy
     
  5. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    There is no more film. It was gone after on night of running an airstone. And had been gone for 2 days before I observed this, which leads me to believe at water changes there is a high amount of oxygen, but it gets used and not replaced. So, I need to look into ways to improve my addition of O2.

    I also have 2 koralia ones directed towards the surface to move the surface around. The water isn't placid although the pumps are angled so they don't break the surface too much.

    I will look into a skimmer if it will improve O2 levels more than the airstone. Until then I will program my controller to turn on periodically.
     
  6. hbosman

    hbosman Guru Class Expert

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    Personally, I would angle one or both of the Koralias to create more surface agitation. You already have them so maybe you can avoid adding additional equipment. When I've adjusted my surface turbulence lower, my drop checker would get green faster but, the difference cost wise in co2 usage was hardly noticable. So, I increased the surface turbulence again to make the fish more comfortable. CO2 is cheap, crank up the surface turbulence.
     
  7. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Dutchy,

    Can one increase o2 by using air stones ? And, if I use air stones when co2 is working don't I waste co2 ? Right now my air stones start when the co2 shuts off and they run for 4 hrs. Oh, one more thing........Should I increase my bubble rate if I use air stones when the co2 is on ? So far in 11 days I managed not to gas the creature and have yellowish green DCs in about 6 hrs.
     
  8. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    Yes


    Yes but is better for the fish and other critters.

    Why not run 24/7?

    Please increase c02 rate SLOWLY with several days of observation between. It is very easy to gas fish. I have done it. Also, it takes time for the plants to adjust to increased c02 levels, so a daily increase tells you nothing.

    It can take several days for fish or the system to show stress levels. It may be cumulative.

    Adding more surface agitation will also work as pointed out by others.

    Yes, adding c02 will need more c02 to reach the desired level, but I would rather refill more frequently than gas my fish.
     
  9. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Gerryd,

    I was under the impression after reading about it on several forums that co2 will be wasted.

    For sure. I am watching constantly in the last 12 days. And, on top of that my wife gets a little worry when she sees any of the fish going up for breath of fresh water. I am also watching the rcs closely.
    Thanks Gerryd.
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Fish Are Not Mammals

    Hi barbarossa41(6?)22,

    Not Dutchy, not Gerry, certainly not that smart.:eek:

    However, CO2 and O2 are separate issues; CO2 does not displace O2 in our aquariums.:gw

    What are you observing/testing to cause you to believe your O2 levels are low?

    If you have reason to believe your critters are not getting enough oxygen then increasing the surface area of your aquarium is the way to go. Since expanding the physical size of the aquarium is expensive, most folk increase the surface area many times over by agitating the surface. One method of surface agitation is the use of air pumps and air stones.

    Surface agitation by its nature increases the surface for gas exchange so you will probably give up some CO2, if you use your aquarium as the reactor you will give up more CO2.

    Other things to increase the O2 include:

    1. lowering the temperature,
    2. aiming powerheads upward to break the surface,
    3. reducing the stocking levels,
    4. being careful about feeding,
    5. having healthy plants and/or algae.

    Certainly be careful about raising CO2 levels.:)

    Biollante
     
  11. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Bio,

    Nothing so far but, I am reading about co2 and o2 and just want to make sure the creatures are "comfortable".

    I have plenty for sure.

    That's a must or I am a dead man.





    Great advice. Thanks Bio.
     
  12. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Well, to experiment what will happen I, turned the air bubbles at 6 am today to run when the co2 is on and after 5.5 hrs the DCs are almost blue. Before they will turn yellow green in about the same time. Same bubble rates, even a little more.
     
  13. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Bio,

    :)How come I am the only member that gets an extra letter and/or number added to the screen name ? :)
     
  14. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dagged-nabbed Computer Glitch I Guess… I Type "41" It Adds "(6)"

    Hi barbarrossa41(6?)22, :eek:

    I am always curious as to what people are telling us. Somebody like me, I just use my real name Biollante Evilplantmonster, some like Jim Miller use clever disguises.

    The (6?) is just my curiosity regarding your screen name. :confused:

    Biollante
     
  15. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Lol, I know you are very smart Bio and I mean that. 6= the 6th month of the year. So it will be June the 6 th 1941 when a very close relative of mine went East and managed to come back home in 1952.
     
  16. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    All politics aside.

    That sucks. Living with that must stay heavy on your heart - to be so open about it. Have a long talk with your relative about the tendency to over romanticize reality.
     
    #16 Tug, Jan 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2011
  17. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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  18. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    No need to thank me.

    Thank You.
    [video=youtube;CebRfSFnWGM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CebRfSFnWGM[/video]
     
    #18 Tug, Jan 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2011
  19. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Hmm, Lenny Bruce.......I wonder why he changed his name. Ah, they are all doing it now days just ask Jon Steward, Roseanne Barr and so on. Anyway it is a funny flick and I kind of like the Indian dude b/c he did not say much. How does one find this stuff on the net ?
     
    #19 barbarossa4122, Jan 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2011
  20. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Glad you liked it
     
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