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Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

Discussion in 'Algae Control' started by jrneuzil, Apr 21, 2006.

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  1. jrneuzil

    jrneuzil Subscriber

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    Tom,
    After getting rid of GDA and others I am left with this battle. I hope these pictures show enough to help you help me.
    www.barrreport.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=388&c=11&userid=432

    www.barrreport.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=387&c=11&userid=432

    www.barrreport.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=386&c=11&userid=432

    I am dosing the following.
    5/8 tsp. KN03 three times a week
    3/16 tsp. KH2P04 three times a week
    1/4 tsp MSG04 daily
    TSG 15ML Three times a week

    My Degassed PH is 8.37 and I drive the PH down to 6.60 with CO2. It takes around 1.5 hrs to get down to that range. It startes out 7.2 or so in the morning.

    I trim and prune but this stuff keeps coming back. My dosing was lower but I upped it about a week thinking it may help, but not sure if that is the right thing or not.

    JR
     
    #1 jrneuzil, Apr 21, 2006
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Well,

    Looks very much like poor CO2.
    I'd do this:

    Add
    1/2 teaspoon KNO3 3-4x a week
    1/8th of the KH2PO4 3-4x a week

    Traces: 10mls 3x a week, TMG etc

    MgSO4, 1/2 teaspoon or so after the water change.
    Then maybe once more mid week.

    I'd work on CO2.
    There's no simple way to mess with it other than add it and watch the plant's, you likely know what good vigorous growth should look like.

    It'll take the plants a little to get back to growing well, but keep an eye on them and the fish.

    You can do more frequent water changes, say 2x a week to whip a tank back into shape.

    You can also dose more(mega dosing) of about any fert the day prior to a large water change.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #2 Tom Barr, Apr 21, 2006
  3. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    JR, how are you measuring PH? Using a meter or a test kit? If a meter, do you take great pains to avoid any electrical interference, and calibrate the probe/meter at two points? It just seems impossible to have as much CO2 as those numbers indicate, without losing fish right and left. When I edged mine up to the 80-90 range I lost several fish very quickly. And, it looks like your numbers say you have much more CO2 than that.
     
    #3 VaughnH, Apr 21, 2006
  4. jrneuzil

    jrneuzil Subscriber

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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Thanks Tom
    I will do that and up the CO2 a bit. I can drop it a little but my fish surface when I hit 6.13. I am pumping alot of CO2 through a 15" reactor. My bubble counter is near a stream. Pump rate throught the reactor is pretty fast.

    VaughnH
    I measure with a probe. I do use two points to calibrate. I don't think I have interferance problems but I will check that out. Thanks.
     
    #4 jrneuzil, Apr 22, 2006
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    JR,

    About 1 bubble per second is a typical rate through a 1/8" tubing(ID) for a tank this size with this amount of light.

    Increase surface movement also to help provide some more wiggle room for your fish health... unless it's fairly fast and tubulant now.

    You can add more CO2 to account for the lost and this is the other end of respond times, the degassing when the lights go off and good O2 at night. The good part in early part of the day with current: good mixing through out the tank.

    So while it waste CO2 to some degree, it also helps mix it and degas an excess fast.

    There is always a trade off, but this is one is worth while I believe and my own practical experinece also seems to show this over the long term.

    The real question are: are the trades off worth while in terms of your goal and method you want to use.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #5 Tom Barr, Apr 22, 2006
  6. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Tom, Amano's method of night time aeration is similar to that of yours (able to add CO2 at high rate without worrying about the night since the aeration will degas any excess rapidly) except that his tradeoff is the removal of high O2?

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
    #6 PeterGwee, Apr 22, 2006
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Well, higher than ambient levels of O2 are not really that good or bad.

    I'm not sure he does the aeration at night because of the reasons I suggest, he thinks it's the plants that use up all the O2, that is not even remotely close. It's the bacteria and perhaps the fish if you have a high fish load.

    I'm not suggestion night time aeration also.

    I'm suggesting more current and flow all the time, not just at night.
    that improves the CO2 response time, aeration only degasses and is a poor choice for mixing CO2 during the day.

    regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #7 Tom Barr, Apr 22, 2006
  8. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Tom, so the surface movement created should actually be due to the extra current below the surface water rather than pointing the filter outlet towards the surface to get the surface moving (since the typical canister filter is drawing water at the bottom which should be CO2 rich, sending it to the surface from the outlet is actually working against the CO2 addition?)?

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
    #8 PeterGwee, Apr 22, 2006
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    I do not think this makes much difference.
    It's also hard to avoid unless you are real good about maintaining the same surface level in the tank(you add top off water 2-3x a week etc), or have a Wet/dry surface skimmer/sump system.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #9 Tom Barr, Apr 22, 2006
  10. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Since the moderate surface movement is degassing the CO2, isn't the response time going to be slower and the CO2 system/reactor/mist method needs to be more efficient (oversized and etc) to meet the needs? Am I missing something here? I know the importance of the surface movement as high CO2 makes fish respiration difficult and worst when the O2 level is low.

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
    #10 PeterGwee, Apr 22, 2006
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Yes, you are right to some degree.
    Not an easy thing to quanatify though.

    Still, I like some surface turbulance and current.
    Well mixed tanks run better IMO.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #11 Tom Barr, Apr 22, 2006
  12. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Ok, I fixed back the spraybar vertically after changing back and fore with a single point outlet with it. Seems that my filter was previously clogged as the flow was rather weak and now seems fine. The little surface movement with flake food and small leaves on the surface moves pretty fast while the rest of the current is providing circulation. Thanks Tom. :)

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
    #12 PeterGwee, Apr 22, 2006
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    This hobby will humble you well.

    Never forget that.

    We do anyhow, but still, try not too:)
    Do not be so hard headed to admit overlooking some rather simple issues, often when the tank goes funny, it's that. On rare ocassions, it is something special. But those ARE RARE so look elsewhere first.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #13 Tom Barr, Apr 22, 2006
  14. PeterGwee

    PeterGwee Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    :D

    Regards
    Peter Gwee
     
    #14 PeterGwee, Apr 22, 2006
  15. jrneuzil

    jrneuzil Subscriber

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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Ok Tom, now I am getting a little jumpy.
    I upped the CO2 down to around 6.4 for the last three or four days and today the algae jumped back a little worse. More leaves are covered today than I had already trimed back earlier in the week.

    JR
     
    #15 jrneuzil, Apr 27, 2006
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Tell me what your plants are doing.
    And mention what species of algae you are talking about.

    Does not sound like CO2 in your case.
    SAE's will help as will Amano shrimps.
    They go well with the fish you have.



    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #16 Tom Barr, Apr 27, 2006
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Ignore last post...

    Add at least 10-15mls of TMG 3x a week.

    Plants look very pale and if you are adding that much NO3 etc, then that's not causing that(not anything to do with NPK).
    Add some more plants => cheap stem plants
    Stick with the dosing routine I suggested
    Add some Amano shrimps also.

    Are you keeping up on things or neglecting the tank in between?
    The CO2 still looks poor. Adding more CO2 will not cause algae.

    Try one of those DIY internal reactors for now, I think you'll find they are easy to adjust and stabilize the tank's CO2.

    Are the fine needle stem plants pearling the last 1/2 of the day?
    CO2 is very critical at high KH's I've found.
    Low Kh's as well but not quite as critical.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #17 Tom Barr, Apr 27, 2006
  18. jrneuzil

    jrneuzil Subscriber

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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Tom,
    The fine needle stuff is pearling but maybe a little later than at half into the day. Maybe more like 3/4's. I will up the TMG to 15 ml, I was at 10.
    Am I ok with the KNO3 and KH2p04. As I look closer I notice a little increase in some GSA so I was thinking I shouls up the KH2PO4.
    I keep up on things pretty well. Cleaning and pruning etc.

    JR
     
    #18 jrneuzil, Apr 27, 2006
  19. jrneuzil

    jrneuzil Subscriber

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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Well I dropped my PH a little lower. My fish show alot of distress when I hit 6.3. The cardinals looked ok, but the Red Tailed shark and Ottos were hitting the surface or swimming upside down and the like.
    I backed it back up to 6.4 and will target 6.4 to 6.5.

    JR
     
    #19 jrneuzil, Apr 28, 2006
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Tom,,,, Help. Not sure what to do.

    Sounds about right then as far CO2(you have some decent surface movement?), add more PO4 and TMG and see how things look here. Keep simple tabs on the GH and I think the tank should fill in and do pretty good from here.

    Just stick with it and keep on top of it for 2-3 weeks.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #20 Tom Barr, Apr 28, 2006
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