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TMG big concern with Iron: Alternanthera reineckii

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by jonny_ftm, Apr 3, 2009.

  1. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    a technical point - 5 x 10% changes is not equal to 1 x 50% water change!!

    the first you are taking 10% of the original amount of water, the second 9% etc

    I have no idea what this conductivity stuff is. I just use whatever water comes out of my tap. No testing at all. I have no test kits nor want them.

    I did hear on some forums that fish and shrimp were acting funny after water changes and it turned out to be that in the winter people used more hot water in the water changes which meant less oxygen in the water.

    Either way n idea what the conductivity, KH, GH etc is in my water. It just goes straight in the whole 50% in 1 go.

    AC
     
  2. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Hi,

    In fact, I see the math behind 5x10% < 50% in avoiding accumulation of elements.

    About my shrimps/snails, it could be also a CO2 issue: when the problem happened, it was when I added my surface aspiration to the external filter, thus, I had to:

    - reduce external filter output
    - change flipper (CO2 internal diffuser) from its position
    - stopped my 6055 nanostream

    The flipper was moved where my shrimps/snails used to stay (just behind my big root). The flow in the tank was drastically lowered with my inconscious interventions and a major PH/CO2 gradiant was created as my PH meter near the flipper got crazy. So, I moved the PH-meter controlling my solenoid to the opposite side to avoid this switching on/off each 3 mn. I think, the CO2 and PH near the flipper were suerely extremely high in my densely planted tank in comparision to the opposite side where the PH electrode was. It could killed my snails/shrimps.

    I would confirm my theory when I open my canister filter. If the shrimps are still there, than definately these deaths are caused by my appearently innocent interventions. I realise now, thanks to all of you, that they were not that innocent.

    I'll let you know when I open the canister and see if it is still full of shrimps
     
  3. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Hi,

    I opened my canister and, as usual, it was full with Red Cherry shrimps. I took about 20-30 of them and put in the aquarium, there are still a lot in the canister.


    I really think I induced a CO2 problem like you pointed and as I assume my actions did cause it
     
  4. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Hi,

    It was CO2

    Today, I woke up and found my Japonica shrimps introduced 48h ago dead and all the 10 trumpet snails introduced with them immobile.

    My CO2 was as this:

    [​IMG]

    :( really sad. I listen to your advice and stop my PH meter (it was 0.6 away of targert despite calibrated 15 days ago) and move to manual mode

    Meanwhile, after improving my flow and covering it with some plants to reduce light, as you suggested, here's my Alternanthera looking great :) You were true 100%. Impressive effect in just few days

    [​IMG]


    Just to give you a feedback
     
  5. SuperColey1

    SuperColey1 Guru Class Expert

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    So I assume you have now found that you were injecting enough CO2 but not getting it distributed very well.

    Now that you are getting it distributed well enough it is meaning you should be turning CO2 down.

    Therefore before you were hammering away due to the circulation not being up to scratch. Now you only need to tap because the 'system' is working better :)

    AC
     
  6. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    I understand now, sadely I killed lots of shrimps and snails with my CO2 :-(

    Meanwhile, here are my tank as it is flourishing since I started EI


    [​IMG]

    My flowers:

    Anubia Nana
    [​IMG]


    And my Echinodorus preparing a surprise, hopefully i^t'll open in few days
    [​IMG]


    My H. Polysperma, that I totally stripped 2 months ago and that grew again from the undergrounds I guess
    [​IMG]
     
  7. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    My Limnophila Sessiflora and Aquatica that are getting more and more dense
    [​IMG]


    I'll be enhancing the tank for trying to getting into an aquascape :)
     
  8. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    Don't know if you already have solution about this. But you can drill a hole(s) around
    the base of the unit to reduce the surface suction force.
    Canister filter air lock by surface skimmer [Archive] - Arofanatics Fish Talk Forums

    Or buy the Atman's knock off (Atman Surface Suction Extractor), I'm using it with
    Eheim 2217, no flow reduction needed, can take 2217 inflow pipe directly
    (not sure if it's the same size with your 2028).
     
  9. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Drilling holes can lead to their obstruction by decaying leaves, and if abscent for a while, the skimmer could suction air and lock the filter ---> disaster

    I plugged it on an Y junction + added a valve to reduce flow through it. It's now on a more powerful 2078 Eheim filter and no more problems
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Jonny,

    I try to make it clear to go slow and steady with CO2 and watch the fish and animals. However, it's not just a function of too much CO2, it's also the O2.

    Good O2 means we accept some CO2 loss from degassing and moving the water, but this is help the livestock better handle high CO2 ppm's. The loss in CO2 can be easily accounted for by adding more, but this is hard to measure. Each tank will be different.

    I think the rule is to have as much surface movement "without breaking the surface" of the water is a good rule. I use about 1/2 the tank's surface with a slight to a good "ripple", then gentle movement of the rest of the surface, still never breaking the water.

    This allows me to add lots of CO2 and without stress to sensitive fish species and shrimps.

    Respiration of livestock, like ourselves, it based on taking in O2 and expelling CO2. So with high CO2, we need concurrent high O2. When the CO2 stops at night, the CO2 dissipates. Since we add high CO2 only for a few hours(8-10 etc), the total time that the fish are exposed is very little, maybe only 1/3 of the day.

    CO2 and it's effect is a very hard thing to see and convince people about.
    Perhaps I got lucky many years ago. Other aquarists do and it looks easy to them.

    Some aquarist have a devil of time and think and insist that their CO2 is perfect, good enough, high as they are going to add it, but often overlook O2, current, their aquascape, flow, surface movement and reducing the intensity of light.

    Discus owners are a classic case: they want hardly any flow(hard to add O2), they want high temperature(not as much O2 the warmer the water is), they want lots of wood and plants for the fish to hide in(less flow, less O2 mixing), they overstock their tanks(low O2 from other fish and waste), and the larger the fish, the more sensitive they are to high CO2 effects as a rule.

    With good O2, we can have 4-5X the CO2 range that we might without considering O2. I use breeding fish in a community tank(not even a species only tank) as a ruler to show that even at 40ppm of CO2, they do well and are stress free. Others claim 10-15ppm is the max level:rolleyes:

    However, their fish are not breeding;)

    So think about how O2 and CO2 are related to livestock.
    Take a long hard look at CO2.
    See how you can isolate and reduce the number of variables down with nutrients, lighting etc, then focus on CO2, but be careful, too much = dead fish, too little = algae/poor plant growth, it's a 2 edge sword.

    We can isolate the nutrients/light easily, so we can see how CO2 behaves as far as plants. However, we are aquarist and like fish and shrimps also.
    So now we need to consider their demands as well, of which O2 is the larger of them. CO2 alone can kill the fish etc, but O2 also plays a very significant role, and is often not discussed. It has to be discussed anytime CO2 toxicity is discussed.

    Also, try to allow the A reineckii to get shaded by other plants, that grow faster generally, it will do well and generally grows slower anyway. Trim only when you have to. It should fill in in another month and you should have a nice thick group.

    You can reduce the light after everything grows in nicely.
    Or, if you want to keep gardening, leave the light higher.
    After the tank is nice and doing well for a month or so, you might try adding more light and seeing how things go if you like to garden and trim. Just remember to scale the CO2 up and watch the tank carefully when you do.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks again Tom,

    You're 100% right. I noticed that the same CO2 color (yellow in my drop checker), when a good surface movement is present, won't affect the behaviour of my fish at all. When I had no movements, they weren't so good

    For this tank, I already reduced the light by 50% and still putting my luminaire higher and higher. Now, the growth rate of my H. Polysperma and P. Stellatus are very slow and needs to be trimmed every 3-4 weeks only. I also switched it to most swords and crypts with great success.

    The Altercanthera was removed. Even fully shaded it was melting. I believe it is not a real aquatic plant for long maintenance in submerged state

    Just my P. Helferi in the bottom and R. Wallichii arent' growing well despite they're in the middle under the direct light. I'll open a new topic on this once I check with good CO2 levels for a longer period
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Those two species(P helferi/R wallichii) are also good indicators that the CO2 is not good and stable over time.

    They are easy to grow with decent CO2.

    A. reineckii is perhaps more so.

    Still, the harder more CO2 demanding plants can be avoided, but only up to a point. You really start limiting your plant species choices if you accept poor CO2.

    You also can see the dramatic difference with good CO2 makes, independent of nutrients, and how light affects things.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you again Tom,

    Indeed, my CO2 is all but stable, based on my dropcheck test colour variations from day to day. Probably due to 2 things:

    - Surface movement fluctuations as the Eheim 1000 this task isn't well fixed with its suction parts and moves with electric cord. I'm going to fix it once for all

    - Having probably a bad part in CO2 loop with inconsistent bps. I'll have to unmount and check the reducer, solenoid and check valves. Maybe some water got in there through the plastic check valves!

    I love the R. Wallichii and would like it to grow well without rotting
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    It can be difficult tp pinpoint what in the CO2 equation is wrong, right for many aquariums, the best thing I have to tell is really the plants themselves.

    How fast does the CO2 get to an optimal level once the lights come on?
    A drop checker will not really tell you that.

    How much O2 is present and when? Again, these are really important but few bother to test them.

    It's not just a function of adding more, you have to really try and fiddle to make it better and it often takes 2-4 weeks time to see if that was really the case.

    So many simply scoff at the suggestion of CO2.

    However, after helping folks for 15 years, it's always been the root of most algae, most stunted plant tips.

    It's rare that nutrients where too high or the light was too low..........I've seen that only in very extreme cases and can count those cases on 1 hand.

    For many years aquarist had told me BBA was all PO4 excess, then it was Fe, then some other nutrient. I figured it out myself. CO2. A few other folks had found this out independently, a few in Germany had suggested similar findings as I had been. Others' tried and it cured the root issue.

    Just from an experimental view, making nutrients independent is rather a simple process that aquarist can do. Light is fairly easy as well, as long as you have enough, hopefully can measure with a PAR meter and see what your plants are exposed to there.

    This leaves CO2, filtration, general care, pruning and layout/flow patterns.
    These things take more experience, some are good about them right away, others no so much.

    Go through and really think about how CO2 moves through the aquarium, think about CO2 as a nutrient that is easily dissipated, key to growth and uptake of the other nutrients etc.

    It will help to focus and learn and experience as much as you can with CO2.
    You get more out of this than toying with fertilizers and ratios.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  15. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Tom,

    I know that you're 100% right. Since I follow your recommendations, I no longer fear algae despite all major interventions in my tank, like removing all the stems and replacing with sword/crypts ---> no algae. Sudden change in light --> no algae

    I try to focus on CO2/Light equation, but it's not that easy :-(

    Would you take a look at this thread please:

    http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/6088-co2-diffuser-nano.html

    I'm thinking to use one of them also in my main 60gal, would they be a good solution to get a mist, those atomizer inline devices?

    Many thanks again for all your support
     
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