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the question about Fe2+,Fe3+, EDTA Fe Na

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by insulator, May 15, 2014.

  1. insulator

    insulator Junior Poster

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    Hi Everyone,

    I got some EDTA Fe Na(C10H12FeN2NaO8·3H2O), The manufacturer told me the iron ion is Fe3+.
    1. Can I use the (C10H12FeN2NaO8·3H2O?
    2. The question , is Fe2+ better than Fe3+?
    3. If Fe2+ is better, I could mix the EDTA Na and FeSO4 to get the EDTA Fe2+?

    Thanks,
    Joe
     
  2. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Iron (II) is better absorbed by the plants, but it will not work to get EDTA Fe2 by mixing this + that.
    (EDTA complex will still work as Iron (III) complex)

    Well, you could use Ferrous Gluconate as Iron (II) source and mix it with EDTA Iron (III).
     
  3. Solcielo lawrencia

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    I have noticed that Fe II (EasyLife Ferro) turns red plants redder than using Fe EDTA (CSM+B), which doesn't seem to do much, if anything, for the coloration.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Fe gluconate and Fe DTPA tend to be pretty useful to spike the ETDA general trace(eg, Plantex CMS+B)

    I add 3:1:1 of the 3 CMS+B:1 DTPA Fe: 1 Fe Gluconate(Fe II)

    Then use that.
     
  5. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    ah.. I didn't know. :)

    I use 1:1:1 (0.15 ppm/day)

    probably also fine...

    greets,

    yme
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Doubt it matters all that much, but the other metals are helpful also, so I add plenty of those relative to just Fe.
     
  7. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    something like CSM+B EI style, I would think :)


    greets,

    yme
     
  8. Petex

    Petex Member

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    I am using a mix Fe(II)Gluconat : Fe-DTPA : FE-IDHA
    Fe-EDTA I do no longer use, the biodigradable Fe-IDHA is the better choice.
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Is there a good source of the dry IDHA in the EU?
    You might consider selling a mix since you sell plants etc.

    I think quite a few would buy it from you.
     
  10. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    true. I don't know where I can buy Fe-IDHA

    greets,

    yme
     
  11. Petex

    Petex Member

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    It is also in Germany difficult to get IDHA chelates, but finally got some IDHA-Fe, IDHA-Mn, IDHA-Cu and IDHA-Zn in my fingers.
    And it was also somehow difficult to create a fertiliser around it, because you wont find ppl. sharing their knowledge.
    Well, however but meanwhile I got the stuff working: http://www.nanoplants.de/plants/duengen-hbrid.htm

    It is a Hybrid-fertiliser that contain also Macronutions (Nitrate are some parts Urea, too)
    Other nutritions: K, Fe, Ca, Mg, Mn, B, Cu, Zn, Ni, Co
    The most interesting part is that the fertiliser did not only contain fast, medium, slow releasing Iron
    --> also all other nutritions are fast, medium + long releasing chelated.
    Plants response fast if dosing the stuff.

    Since most parts are IDHA chelated, the fertiliser is nearly fully biodigradable and yes I guess, this makes it somewhat unique. :D
    (Most folks dont care about if their fertiliser chelates pollute at last their tanks ..... or .. if the stuff is any biodigradable)
     
    #11 Petex, Jun 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2014
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Water changes remove it easily anyway, and most do that.

    The biodegrade issues is nice, but it's not an issue if water changes are done.
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Water changes remove it easily anyway, and most do that.

    The biodegrade issues is nice, but it's not an issue if water changes are done.
     
  14. Petex

    Petex Member

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    You will not know for sure how much gets removed without measuring it.

    Regular weekly water changes are still necessary for heavy loaded fish tanks.
    Planted tanks with less bio-load do not need regular water changes. Most folks still perform each week huge water changes, because they were told that doing so is necessary (but thats not true)
     
    #14 Petex, Jun 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2014
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    We removed it with activated carbon for many years, no ill impacts on plants. Whether it was with or without the metal ion, it really is not going to have any noted impact on plants.
    Many people used activated carbon for many years with plants and trace dosing.
    The chelate left overs have not caused any issues anyone could discern.
    activated carbon removed ETDA and the other chelates.
    Fe Gulconate decomposes readily. It's the more common ligand used for human nutrition for Fe.
    We see little differences with that vs ETDA.

    I do not think you have any evidence to suggest it is really, at least in practical terms, better than ETDA.
    It is nice that it biodegrades much faster...........but does it REALLY help?
    Not any more than say gluconate might.

    The onus is on you to demonstrate that it does if you make the claim. I'm willing to try it myself, but given what we have seen with activated carbon, water changes etc, I have tanks where I do 2 x a week 80%, there's not much support for this. Additionally, at the other extreme, we have non cO2 tanks and aquariums with very few water changes and also excellent results.

    So in both cases..........and many can/have used Activated carbon. I've yet to see any negative impacts from carbon, nor positive impacts other than clearer less colored water.
    If there is an effect, it would be pretty subtle at best.

    I'll see if I can get some and try it. If what you say is true, then for marine tanks, non CO2 approaches, tanks with very few water changes, lower light etc...............would gain the MOST from this, whereas a high light more frequent tank, we would expect to have a minor impact.
    I've seen a lot of planted tanks for over 2 decades that use carbon, I cannot say there's any correlation here.

    More water changes than are absolutely needed? Sure! Everyone should really. I do not have to sweep my house but once a every 2-3 months, but I do more often than is needed or the bare minimum.
    Water changes do not hurt. I have a fairly heavily loaded fish tank, my Buce 70 Gallon, bred several species of fish in there. I do not do many water changes in that tank. My 120 gallon gets gardened more and plants are uprooted, so I make more of a mess, so I do more water changes for the mess, hazy water, not due to the fish load.
    My non CO2 60p did great and had 100+ RCS, 20 L011 red farowellas, a dozen or so Botia sidthimunkii. No issues. Water changes once every 3-4 months.

    I just do not see much evidence to support the hypothesis based on a lot of past observations and routines. We could make the same claim about Fe gluconate vs ETDA, but..............we do not see much difference there.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, when you say "pollute", what does that really mean?

    Plants are very good at removal, so most anything we put in, if their needs are net, will be removed.
    So it's more a question of adding "enough" and much less a question of adding too much.

    I've long questioned people who make the claim that excess ferts cause algae or poor plant growth.
    They curiously omit the ranges at which these "pollutants" or ferts cause issues.
    And if they do, then we can see if the range is falsifiable, and in 20 years of debating people, I've yet to find a single case where this occurred.

    Not once.

    K+
    Ca++
    Mg++
    NO3
    PO4(which the product dosing above omits)
    Fe++/Fe+++(ETDA-DTPA-Gluconate citrate, EHHDA)
    SO4




    The only problems I've seen with a good 300-400 species at a minimum is when you are too low, which is not "pollution" by any definition.

    KH is an exception for many species as you move higher.
    CO2(other than fish tolerances)
    NH4 might be an exception as it's toxic as you move higher/increase KH.
    Cu also, but I've done a fair amount in the 1990's, as did Neil Frank, copper is well studied. Traces, even when larded on, just do not add even an order of magnitude enough to cause issues for plant growth.
    Same for many of the other trace metals.

    Plants are pretty tough over a very wide range of nutrients.
    We see this in nature, in labs and in aquariums consistently.
     
  17. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Algae have nothing to do with ferts, they are just introduced by spores and fragments.
    About nutritions and plant grow = it is not that easy. I asked long times ago in the members area a few things and noone was able to answer it. Just at APC is a sticky about nutrition toxicity, but also this sticky is at last a collection with gathered informations from several sources.


    All this is certainly true, but:
    If plants only perform good after huge water changes, it is also a sign that the fert dosing regime is not really working that smooth.
    So certainly you can later remove any unwanted stuff with active filter carbon (must be replaced on a regular base!) + huge water changes all the time - but at last it still cost you more (then necessary) maintenance work.
    I runned f.e. planted tanks up to 2years without perfoming any water change and this works fine -but- depending on the used chelate mix,
    such tanks "can" (not must) get a surface layer. Certainly it is to early to say how IDHA performs, but I expect better results from it exspecially for such tanks in the long run.

    There are much differences.
    Gluconate precipitated pretty quickly and is still stable for 5-20minutes, Citrate few hours, EDTA ~2days, DTPA ~4days, EDDHA 7days and so on. (depending on PH)
    So for example if yours only iron source would be just only Gluconate = you need to dose 2x daily and at last tons off it. (0,3-1ppm iron daily).
    Same for Fe-Citrate ..... and dosing organic stuff in the big way usually also boosts bacteria bloom and if you dose much Citrate combined with Urea/Ammonia it can also boost (unwanted) GDA.
    Fe-IDHA itselfs seems to be stable for 12-24h, so somewhat between Citrate+EDTA but without some off their sideeffects.

    About phosphate, this must be dosed additionaly with (NH4)H2PO4,
    because it is not possible to mix Phosphate together in the same bottle with any weak ligants like Ferrous Gluconate.
    (it will directly precipitated)
     
    #17 Petex, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2014
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