The Lot......BGA, BBA, Orange Snot, dust etc

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
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New Zealand
Well after a plethora of advice elsewhere I decided to come to the experts to help me with my tank + I'm using EI so it makes sense to come to the Barr Report.

I'd consider myself slightly more advanced than beginner but less than intermediate. I ran a planted tank when I was living in australia and although it initially suffered some BGA, it cleared up and I had lovely tank with lush growth and happy fish. I used to trim a bucket of plants out of this same size tank with the same lights on it every week.....

But now I've moved back to New Zealand and have setup another planted tank after a few years break... but this time I am having endless problems with algae. I had a plague of BGA which I dosed excel which has rid most of it but some persistant areas such as the leaves of my large sword... I get orange snot type algea caught up in all of my java ferns on my pieces of wood... BGA all over the gravels and rocks, a brown stain on almost all of the plants This tank has been setup for almost 8 months now:

Heres my water parameters:

Local Tap Water:

pH - 7
kH - 20ppm (1.12 dH)
GH - 20ppm (1.12 dH)
NO3 -
 

Gerryd

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Hi,

I think you have the following root causes:

1. Too MUCH light, period. It is NOT the duration so much as the intensity. MH are very bright bulbs. I assume you meant suspended 30cm and not 300? I would either raise the light or simply purchase a shop light for T8 or T5 and get some 6500 k tubes. This will provide better SPREAD of light and less intensity. 2-4 tube fixture would be great if tubes can be removed and the fixture still work.

LIGHT is what drive NUTRIENT and C02 DEMAND! The more light, the more demand :) At higher light levels it can become very difficult to provide enough c02 required.

2. Filtration - filters are NOT all the same is all I will say. You do yourself a disservice with your assumption that they are more or less equivalent. You want to filter 5-10x the water volume as a good minimum. Many canisters do NOT produce the flow per mfg specs so be careful here. There are different types of canisters. Eheims for example are good bio filters but tend to flow much less water than say a Fluval or Magnum They are designed differently for different tasks. Many canisters are designed for mechanical filtration mostly and bio-filtration an afterthought.

Look at my recent video on my sump and CPR overflow for the operation of an overflow and sump for a non drilled tank....

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/10717-Sump-and-CPR-Overview

3. Surface agitation - o2 is vital for plants and fish and is part of the c02 equation. More 02 allows for a bit more c02 and provides a bit more safety for fauna. A switch to a sump and overflow box will also provide surface skimming which has many advantages.

4. C02 - I would stop trying to use the kh/ph chart as it is not foolproof and can easily make you think you have plenty of c02 when in fact you do not. I would suggest that you do NOT have sufficient c02 as your issues highlight. There are more assumptions to the chart than you may know. Also, many hobbyist test kits are not that accurate. If they have NOT been calibrated to a known solution (a whole nother subject) you cannot use the results to make decisions.

5. EI dosing - dose N,P, and K and macros. Do so at least 3x per week with a 50% water change. It is very difficult to overdose and you seem to not have enough. It is not going to hurt anything to dose EI for a 150 gal tank say. This is where the 50% water changes come in to avoid a buildup. Trust me, I am sure I dose more than needed in my 220, but it dose no harm that I can see, and I can rule out these types of deficiencies.

Re, stop dosing of P. I do not understand at all the experimentation with limiting nutrients to induce color or reduce GSA. This simply causes a ripple effect in how the plant grows and functions. I would not do this with a fish or animal, why with a plant? It makes no sense to me....

Here is what I would do if this were my tank:

1. Dump the MH and go to flourescent or raise the MH fixture a lot! I had 3x150 mh years ago and they were suspended 40" above a 24" deep tank and still had 100mmoles of PAR at the substrate which is very high light. You can have a 6-8 hr CONSTANT photoperiod. Then use say 1 tube for off hours viewing. With say a 4 tube fixture, you can use the 2 outer bulbs for a good spread over the tank and perhaps not need the inners.

But when things are better, you can use the other 2 for a short 'noon' burst if you so desire.

You can also use floating plants to shield the light or use screening material in layers to reduce the light.

2. Dose EI at DOUBLE the recommend rate. Dose AFTER your water change. Try for 2-3 x weekly, but daily is better if you can do so. It takes 2 minutes!!!! I used to be really bad at this but stuck with it and am now a regular daily doser. Mix ferts in cup of water, stir, and dump in sump.

3. Do larger 75% water change with dechlorinator/Prime as needed for the FULL TANK volume. For now the more water changes the better. Daily would be best but 2 or 3 weekly will help a lot for the next say 2-3 weeks.

4. Get another filter. This can act as a spare and improve tank flow. This will also obviously increase your current filtration level which is not a bad thing. It is very hard to overfilter a tank. Or swap to a good sized wet dry and sump.

5. Increase C02 slowly a tiny bit and then OBSERVE fish and critters for signs of stress. Make an adjustment every 4-5 days with observation in between.

You may also want to investigate other methods of c02 diffusion such as a NW (needle wheel) pump. Your reactor may also be undersize or inefficient for the tank size.

6. Investigate a sump with a HOB overflow box. No need to drill a tank to install a sump and wet/dry.

7. Manually remove as much of the algae as possible.

8. Remove any algae infested or dead/decaying leaves. These will not regrow so eliminate them. Replace any bunches of plants beyond repair. Get some new ones, check forum sales for plants as these can be better quality/less cost. Get some water wisteria, hygro species, etc that will grow quickly.

Steps 2-5 can be done for several weeks to assess the results and ensure all is well with the increased c02.

Your BGA can be caused by low K, dirty or underperforming filters, low c02 or any combination of these three.

I really think you are underdosing, underfiltered, overlit, most likely insufficent c02, and not enough in tank flow or surface agitation.

Have some PATIENCE as well. It will take some time for the plants to recover and the algae to stop growing. Watch your plants for signs of new growth and no more NEW algae. This may take some time to get it all working as you want. C02 is NOT easy to guage and it is a fish/critter killer, so much care must be taken.

I am curious as to what changed since your move that your well run tank fell apart? To what do you attibute all these issues? What type of advice did you receive and what were the results? The tank should be cycled/mature by now after 8 mos. To go from trimming a bucket of plants a week to the tank I see above is pretty drastic.

Hope this helps.
 
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Gerryd

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Hi,

Feeding: frozen blood worms thoroughly washed to remove wastes, white worm, algae wafers, live brine shrimp, a variety of flakes cheap and expensive (all of them test positive for high phosphate so I try and feed sparingly).

Try and get off the train of thought that excess NUTRIENTS are the root cause of algae. There are many hypothesis around this but NO REAL FACTS.TESTING has been done to date.

If you are feeding your fish less simply to avoid nutrient buildup, it is not helping your fish. You feed a good varied diet, but a mature/well filtered tank should not have an issue with a full feeding of the foods you describe.
 

Gerryd

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dutchy;89857 said:
Wow,

The 8 commandments of getting a healthy tank ;) People should print this and hang it on the wall. :)

Great.

Hey HJ,

Thanks....

Sometimes folks just need practical advice as well as theory or a lecture :)

Weren't there 10 commandments at one time ???? lol
 

Gerryd

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Hi,

One last thought. Concentrate on GROWING PLANTS and NOT BATTLING ALGAE...

If the plants are all healthy and growing well, algae is less of an issue...I cannot tell you WHY this is, but it seems to be so.
 

Gerryd

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Hi,

FYI, a target c02/ppm is more like 30-40 and sometimes >.

Also, please describe in more detail your c02 reactor and the brand/model of filter?
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
9
0
1
New Zealand
Wow, thanks Gerryd for your comments:

I think the biggest differences from my previous tank to this one are:

Guru - Probably the biggest bonus was that I had a plant guru as a mentor who guided me through some of the initial teething problems + mixed me up brews of nutrients to dose each day. Unfortunately he didnt move to NZ with me to keep up the guidance and have since lost touch.
Substrate - I had a locally sourced laterite that was very very high in iron..this may have had an impact although this local mix is supposed to be good.
Filter - I had a diy filter I made from a pickle barrell... it was rough and ready but with a 3500 L/hr pump used to turn a lot of water. But this was much more expensive to run than a cannister filter and didnt have the ease of disconnecting pipes for cleaning so decided to go for a bought one here in NZ.
Water - Th water wasnt as soft and thus possibly a more stable water chemistry??
Luck - Possibly a lot of my luck with that first tank was just that.... luck

Other than that the lights were same height off the water surface, same CO2 regulator but used to feed directly into filter outlet. I never really worried about micro bubbles, reactors or CO2 levels it just seemed to work and the plants were happy. Tank was much more heavily stocked with locally caught rainbow fish (splendida) but had rampant tenelllus and limnophila aromatica which probably chewed through the nutrients more than my leggy glosso... but you would expect my current Heteranthera to be literally filling the tank.

So taking on board all your comments, I am investigating alternative light options as it would be great to reduce the power bill. Raising them is the easiest quick fix although they are at the end of their current extensions so will need to build new ones. I can't imagine lights 40" (thats a meter!!!) above the tank, I will definately have to do somthing about mine as they are only 12"!!!

Also I am looking at sump option with wet and dry, would love to find an overflow box like the one you have on yours.. not sure i can get it in NZ but will try import or find an alternative. I have started daily dosing and will double the EI dose and will make sure there is plenty of K in there. Will try and do a water change every 2 -3 days (maybe 25 - 30%???) with a large 75% change on the weekend.



Thanks again for your comments - Regards Peet
 
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Gerryd

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Hi,

Your response lays out what really changed and it was NOT luck:

had a plant guru as a mentor who guided me through some of the initial teething problems

This is quite important if they were in fact local and experienced. It is very difficult at times to diagnose over the web. Plus I am sure that he or she would have spotted deficiences or arising issues and taken action BEFORE they became an issue. This is a vital point and cannot be overlooked.

+ mixed me up brews of nutrients to dose each day.

So, you dosed daily and most likely in sufficient quantities, again due to an experienced mentor. Now you dose using a less complex mix and less frequently, correct?

Tank was much more heavily stocked with locally caught rainbow fish

Which also adds to the nutrient levels in the water column via fish waste and heavier feeding.......

but with a 3500 L/hr pump used to turn a lot of water

Water movement is also important (what is not?) to a planted tank to distribute c02 and nutes and also to remove detritus and other benefits. Fish also react positively to good flow. Now you have much less due to the swap to a smaller filter with MUCH less flow.

but used to feed directly into filter outlet.

So, you CHANGED the c02 diffusion method which can have a huge impact. Going from a direct injection method with higher flow to a reactor powered by less flow is A SIGNIFICANT change and is the biggest culprit of all. When c02 hardware changes are involved, you cannot assume the same bubble rate will provide the same c02 levels as the previous method. A diffuser for example takes more working pressure than a reactor. A needle wheel also uses more c02 generally. Changes to tubing, regulator, etc cannot be made w/o resetting and ensuring adequate and stable c02 levels.

To me it sessm evident that the hardware changes you made, changes to c02 methodology, along with the loss of an experienced mentor, the loss of flow and daily dosing, all contributed to the current conditions.

The big factors in planted tanks were all impacted by your changes: c02, flow, filtration, nutrient dosing. Your light worked before because these things were adequate to the light levels and now they are not :) It is really that simple.

Looking back it is not surprising you and the tank are struggling. You impacted in a negative manner almost every vital part of a planted tank :) It will pass but take some work. 10 minutes a day of checking the tank and observing can go a long way towards success. Go back to daily dosing and use EI, get your c02 worked out (a long term affair), and work on your maintenance schedule. It will be less work soon once things get better.

Are you handy at all or a DIY person? There are MANY ways to plumb things with true unions and gate valves that while an initial investment faciltate the maintenance/repair of any part of the plumbing by shutting it off and disconnecting it. You may want to go back to your old barrel filter but perhaps with a less watt consuming pump and different plumbing?

Yes, the MH were over a meter above the substrate. I have a thread/pics of it on the forum somewhere. It was my 180 gal so not my current 220 if you search :) I have lots of posts so bw warned..and I tend to babble as well.

The overflow I have is a CPR siphon type but I am sure you can get the std type with the U tube siphons that connect the inner and outer boxes.

You have a nice rimless tank and some nice fish. Be nice to see it filled with happy and healthy plants.

Revert back to what was SUCCESSFULL for you in the past for a few weeks (which is all I am really saying with my advice) and see how that goes. What have you got to lose?

I bet if you do you come back happy in 3-5 weeks or sooner....

Hope this helps.
 
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Tom Barr

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The tap water is fine, do not alter it other than adding some GH booster. I have similar water. So does NYC/SF/Seattle Portland OR etc.
Focus on light(less, better spread etc), and better CO2. You likely are okay using the pH/KH table for CO2. I'd certainly try 40ppm or more, but watch the fish closely. Adjust CO2 carefully and little by little, other wise you will kill your fish. You have been warned.

Lower light= less energy cost.
Lower light= much easier to dose CO2
Lower light= easier more flex dosing of ferts.
Lower light= less heat added= more O2
Lower light, slower more manageable trimming

So light, then focus heavily on CO2, dosing ferts is one of the last issues and relative simple to address.
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
9
0
1
New Zealand
Thanks for the input Tom and Gerry.... ha ha.
I'm working on the light issue at the moment.. unfortunately the ballast cable lengths wont allow me to lift the lights any more than a few more inches. Have been looking at T5HO options and perhaps 2x bulbs with the MH inbetween. The T5's will be the main source, with a burst of 2 - 3 hrs of MH noon time?

Also looking into sump option as ultimately this will suit me best as want to have the tank free of equipment.

Just a quick question though on the dosing... I note that Gerryd states that lack of K may be partly to blame for the BGA. I am only dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 under the assumption that this would provide more than enough K in the tank... are you suggesting I should be dosing K2SO4 as well??
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
9
0
1
New Zealand
Hi Gerry, things are going much better although I am having to be really patient. I have borrowed some T8's from a friend whilst I explore lighting options. Have a few quotes coming in for T5 fixtures which I will look at getting next year. In the mean time the 6000K MH bulbs I ordered before I posted here have arrived so I am raising the lights to 900mm off the substrate and will live with them for another few months. I purchased a marine sources overflow unit and busy setting up a sump with wet and dry. Have pump and some of the parts just sorting out the baffles and pipework. I am dosing EI every day and algea is definately better, although there is still BGA and BBA. I have put a powerhead in the tank which I move around a fair bit to change the location of the current but that has completely dealt to the orange snot algae. Crypts are starting to grow again although I have lost all of my glosso and will need to start again with this. Fish health seems good and I noticed for the first time last week when I did my water change that the colour was not as tainted brown as previously and less muck off the bottom... so yes its looking much better and I have high hopes that as I install the remainign items it will get back on track... Many thanks and I will update this post in a month or so once everything is in place - Cheers - Peet
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
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0
1
New Zealand
Ok, spent 8 hrs re-plumbing the tank on Saturday. I built a 135 L sump with wet and dry followed by baffled zone which allows enough room for 2x heaters, 2500 L/hr return pump, co2 reactor with powerhead, and space for a media bag if I need to add something (at the moment the bag is holding a whole lot of noodles from my cannister filter to help seed the new filter media in the wet and dry). I have raised the MH lights to 900mm off the substrate and put in 6000K bulbs. At some point in the next 12 months I hope to switch to t5 lights but you have to ease the expenses on aquariums when you have a family to keep. Overflow is a marine sources unit with a bean animal setup to keep it quiet.

BUT: I have measured the CO2 this morning and despite around 2-3 bubbles per second I have a KH = 20 and pH around 6.75 - 7.00... which means I only have around 6 ppm of CO2 in the water!!!!!!!!!! The reactor is a powerhead on top of a 1 litre soda bottle cut down to match depth of sump. The powerhead (500 L/hr) has venturi which sucks water/gas from the top portion of the reactor and puts it back into the powerhead stream. CO2 is bubbled into the bottom of the reactor... no diffuser/limestone bubbler just straight bubbles into the reactor. The reactor is right next to the return pump so Im figuring most of the water coming out is sucked into the return pump. THere are fine bubbles at the top of the sump so I guess that some CO2 micro bubbles do escape..... How do I increase my dissolved CO2 in the water column??????????????? Is it as simple as increasing the bubble count or do I need a better reactor, do I need to increase the KH along with increased CO2?? Look forward to your responses - Kind Regards - Peet
 

sandeepraghuvanshi

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Nov 8, 2011
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You can go in for branded reactors, it makes a big difference.
A better reactor is a good way to increase co2 in your tank.
I use a ISTA Min max reactor with good results.
Further I find drop checkers are much better way to measure Co2 and most probably more accurate then Kh/Ph charts.
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
9
0
1
New Zealand
I was really hoping not to spend any more money for a little while (saving for lights).. there must be a diy reactor that folks have ad good success with??
 

Gerryd

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Peet;93775 said:
I was really hoping not to spend any more money for a little while (saving for lights).. there must be a diy reactor that folks have ad good success with??

Look on the c02 forum. Tom has a diy reactor for $20 or less made out of pvc. Or google it as folks all over the world want the same thing for less $.

How do you like the borrowed T8? I used T8 and T12 for years with non c02 and they worked great for me....
 

Peet

Junior Poster
Oct 27, 2012
9
0
1
New Zealand
Well todays a great day for my tank... plants are pearling.. I tried at least 3 variations of reactors and none seemed to make a lick of difference to my CO2 concentration and the powerhead was sooo noisy each time it crunched a co2 bubble...... so I followed Gerryds advice and went back to the last thing that worked for me on my previos tank setup....... I connected the co2 directly into the housing of my 2000 L/r return pump, no diffusion chambers or powerheads and by the end of the day my co2 has gone from around 6 ppm to somwhere between 20 - 35ppm (my ph test kit is only 0.5 units so a bit difficult to get a reading... must invest in pH probe). Plants were pearling and fish looked fine... will probably leave it like this for a week or two and see how the plants respond. Hopefully this will also help to knock back whats left of the BBA.

So rounding up..
1.) spending a very small amount of money on the BarrReport membership has been extremely productive as the advice has been spot on.
2.) I reduced my lighting by raising the MH bulbs and will move to T5 some time in the next 12 months to try and reduce the power bill
3.) for a fair amount of time I doubled my fert input... it had no increased algae effects, in fact algae diminished... proof that PO4 and NO3 alone do not cause algae
4.) The cheap and nasty 1200 L/hr (although probably half this once media was added) cannister filter was pulled out. I added a marine sources overflow unit with herbie/bean animal style outlets (2x) draining to a wet and dry filter (media made from rolled up shadecloth strips tied with a cable tie). A 2000 L/hr return pump splits the flow back into the tank with adjustable outlets to direct flow around tank. In the future I will look to install a more efficient/expensive pump but this cheapy pond pump will have to do for now. Now theres heaps more water movement in the tank and for now I have removed the powerhead. THe sump allows me to put heaters and co2 underneath the tank leaving the aquarium very neat with only the stainless returns in the tank. As the background plants take hold they will obscure the overflow and wall behind tank.
5.) CO2 is injected into pump housing right in front of pump impeller, no needle wheel just standard impellar... can hear a slight crunching noist but no visible micro bubbles coming out of the return!!!!

I cant wait to see what the next few weeks bring, but here are the current tank pics, sorry for low quality, they are off my phone. PS... the timber brace across the top of the tank is temporary whilst I wait for a new glass one.

2013-02-09212134-2_zpseda4e17e.jpg


2013-02-09211431_zps815b8a25.jpg


2013-02-09211629_zpsc4d2ea5f.jpg


2013-02-09211638_zps50d6a26e.jpg
 
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Gerryd

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Hi Peet,

Sounds like things are getting on track.....appreciate you posting the results of your efforts.....

A few questions if I may:

1. How the heck do you work on/install that overflow box? Do you have little elves that fit back there? There is NO room behind the tank :)

2. Can you show more detail of the tank/plants?

3. Can you share some detail/pics on the SS outlet tubes? They look interesting....

4. What happended to the glass brace? Does the new one get siliconed at all?

5. The Barr membership was the best $80 I have ever spent on this hobby honestly. The wealth and breadth of knowledge/experience here on this forum AND the willingness of Tom and many others to contribute time and effort to helping others, in really quite incredible.

6. Great lesson to learn that excess nutes do NOT in and of themselves cause algae. Many folks never learn this lesson..

Be careful thinking that pearling means all systems go. Watch the PLANT GROWTH, shape, color, etc for signs of improvement. Forget pearling for the moment and concentrate on plant health. The rest will really take care of itself.

Great job on implementing the sump and going back to what worked for you re: c02 in the past...

I think things will be easier going forward with all the improvements you have made AND the reduction of light as well.

Glad to see/hear things are doing better. When I first saw your first pics and read your setup, I was like 'I have been there before' and thought I could help :) My old 180 looked like this when I first joined the forum so many years ago lol