This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Unfortunately for Photobucket users, things have changed in a big way as of June 26th they are rolling out a $399 per year subscription fee for those who want to hotlink images from Photobucket’s servers to display elsewhere.
    This does not mean it only affects this site, It now means that billions of images across the Web now display an error message instead of the image in question. :(
    https://barrreport.com/threads/attention-photobucket-users.14377/
    Dismiss Notice

The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by Greg Watson, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. Greg Watson

    Greg Watson Administrator
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,023
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well ... the October issue of the Barr Report is well in progress ... so let me be the first to tell you about those that will be part of the "Flat Earth Society" ... they want to believe that the world is flat ... and that it is heresey to say anything different ...

    So let me share with you a little bit of their arguement ...

    Yes ... the Flat Earth Society will say all kinds of things ... make all kinds of circular arguments ... some will just be misinformed ... some with have fear in their hearts ... and a few will even say bad things ...

    Now MOST of the Flat Earth Society ... will not be from the religious PMDD sect, or the religious EI sect, or the religious PPS sect ... they will be "scientist" who don't believe in anything that they can not observe ... they will use "proofs" and "theorums" to adapt the story above ...

    Yes ... keep an watchful eye out for the Flat Earth Society and their scientist ... after all, the earth as they know it is flat ... and it is heresy to say different ...

    Greg
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator Social Group Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,458
    Likes Received:
    323
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Where Trolls fear to thread......

    And I've met quite a few........

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Humm.. I don't get this 8)

    Will the next report mention a Flat Earth Society or just stir up feelings within a certain kind of group of narrow minded people?
     
  4. Simpte

    Simpte Prolific Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    I'm thinking Tom is on his way of proving accepted theories wrong again (like adding PO4 will induce algae). The question is, whats he up to this month? :)
     
  5. defdac

    defdac Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Ahhhh I see 8) Exciting!
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator Social Group Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,458
    Likes Received:
    323
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    I know of few folks that have stuck their necks out arguing against what I and others can prove.

    This post is geared for other folks to look into this.

    I measured the rate of dissolution of 272 cc volume of gases(in inches a cylinder h* 2*pi*r^2, with r= 1.625", h= 2", then inches to cubic centimeters conversion), specifically individually CO2 and O2. All air was removed and the reactors are filled with pure gas.

    That gave me a rate difference.
    I measured the rate in AM and PM times and a few times in between.

    I also simply left the CO2 reactor pump (but not the CO2 gas supply) running all night also and the gas pocket bubble inside slowly went down and builds up during the day.

    If you shut the reactor pump off at the end of the day, the gas bubble is "saved".

    When you turn the reactor back on in the morning, the gas pocket rapidly dissolves(less than one minute), and behaves at the same rate as CO2.

    O2 takes over an hour to dissolve the exact same volume..........

    N2, Argon, Ne/He, etc all take much longer to dissolve.
    These other gases also do not impact pH.
    Only CO2 does.

    Even if they were "other" hard to dissolve gases, how can it be possible they dissolve so rapidly the following day when the reactor is turned on? The gas inside is CO2 and dissolves at the same rate as the evacuated Reactor tubes that have pure CO2 added to the same height inside the tube.

    It cannot be other gases nor contaiment gases from the CO2 gas supply source.

    This test is repeatable.

    1. Anyone with a reactor can test the CO2 portion and also test the gas' effect on a sample of water to see if it depresses pH.

    2. You can also fill the tube with air to a marked level on the reactor tube and see how long it takes to dissolve vs filling with pure CO2. Try this in the morning with the CO2 gas shut off at night(this allows the CO2 level in the tank to decline near ambient levels).

    Next, try adding pure CO2 to the reactor tube late in the day after adding CO2 all day long at the 30ppm range.

    Add the gas precisely to the height marked of the side of the tube, say 1/2 way down and measure how long it takes for 2" of height to dissolve into solution.

    Do you see a difference in the rate of dissolution between the times?
    You should.

    3. You can also measure how long it takes to achieve super saturation of O2 from the start of the day with the mist vs the normal method.
    An O2 test kit or a meter can be used.

    4. Simply watch the growth of the plants and see what you think and postulate "why".

    5. Note the smaller bubbles inside the reactor tubes in the AM vs the PM times, do they persist longer later in the day? You can see that they do.
    Look for those smaller bubbles in the AM and compare to later in the day.

    6. Add a venturi loop to recirculate the gas bubble build up in your external reactor. How is it possible that recirculating it and maintaining the SAME bubble rate allows for lower pH and higher CO2 ppm readings?

    The gas has to be CO2 in order for that to occur.
    No gas is being wasted or mixing with the O2 pearling etc inside the tank.

    The CO2 reactor loses efficency later in the day as the CO2 ppm builds up in the tank thus a gas bubble forms inside your external(or internal) reactor.

    Purging this gas and recirculating it by atomizing it in the impeller/venturi loop increases the dissolving ability of the reactor thus you get a lower pH by adding that with the same CO2 input rate.

    As gas saturation increases in water, so does the energy required to dissolve the gas against a concentrational gradient. The larger the gradient, the easier it is to dissolve the gas into the water. Even if the gas is highly souble, this still holds true and we can measure and observe this in the tank.

    Some have discussed "the theory" but have not tested this specific case nor considered the rate differences between abmient CO2 vs 30ppm CO2.

    This is what I noted and observed so I tested it and found this to be the conclusion.

    CO2 does persist longer as CO2 levels build up. I think many assumed that CO2 dissolution was nearly immediate and did not vary, clearly that is not case and you can prove it to yourself using a number of the above methods.

    I suggest folks attempt it and then decide for themselves.
    CO2 still dissolves and dissolves fairly fast compared to other gases at the AM and PM times, but..........it does take longer late in the day and that is why our reactors build up gas at those same times.

    Coinincidence?Other gases? Nope.
    It can only be CO2.

    I was correct all along. People said excess PO4 has to cause algae blooms and thought I was crazy in the past when I suggested it woukld help plant growth and reduce algae (but not scientist in the field, just pissy hobbyists who love their myths).

    Naysayers? Enjoy some crow.

    There is still a lot of work to be done, but this answers a few important questions regarding purity of the said gas source, type of gas, rates of dissolution, methods as to how and why venturi loops improve reactor efficency and increase pH drop and simply the observation of better plant growth and reduced algae presence.

    All very good goals.

    Whether the mist truly hits and is absorbed in the gas phase vs the dissolved phase that is causinjg the increased growth is still debatable. But it seems much more plausible now.....................

    The O2 differences with adding mist when maintaining the same CO2 ppm levels in the water, is one way to show that the mist is increasing plant growth and I've shown this to be the case as well.

    Still, I prefer several methods to show the CO2 mist increases plant growth more than dissolved CO2 in water at saturated 30ppm levels.
    So that part is not yet done.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  7. Tom Wood

    Tom Wood Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    But I just want my tank to look good without a lot of fuss. :gw

    TW
     
  8. Greg Watson

    Greg Watson Administrator
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,023
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    I was just trying to present a funny interpretation of what is likely to come ...

    I expect there to be a little more controversy about what Tom is going to talk about in terms of CO2 ...

    And I am sure we will hear from the zealots and the amatuer scientists ... including the well intentioned few that want to hang on to scientific principles that may not be valid when brought into proper context (i.e. my attempt at some sillyness about scientifically proving that the earth is flat).

    Thanks,
    Greg
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator Social Group Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,458
    Likes Received:
    323
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Well, that's not good enough for a number of folks, fine with me personally. I know what I did to cause better growth.

    But if less fuss is the goal, non CO2.
    If CO2 is still on the table, then this method is still cheap and easy to do and this as well as the venturi method results in better healthier growth, less algae, less CO2/higher efficiency use etc.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator Social Group Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,458
    Likes Received:
    323
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Well, they said the same about heating cables, RO vs Tap water, certainly the prevailing notion with PO4 that some still cling to today over a decade later.

    You'd figure I'd not go out on limb to this degree without being pretty sure and willing to do the work to show it's true.

    So far everything and everyone that has tried it, has reported similar findings as far improved tank health.

    The theory can be right but if it does not do much, it'll go the way of the heating cable. But the theory of that is even wronmg as well as the results in practical tanks.

    Both the theory and the practcial need to be there for the general folks to accept.

    So far, my theory is correct based on the data.

    I have found it entertaining some have truly stuck their neck out on this in the theory part and have not done the measurements and measured the rates.

    You do not based your conclusions on theories, you based them on observations and then go about seeing what conclusions you can draw from the observations.

    I would have never suggested adding PO4, or most of the things I have without paying attentions to observations and seeing that some theories are simply misapplied or wrong.

    I do not care if folks get bent out of shape, I do not care if there is some long held theory, I care if I'm right.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. Dolfan

    Dolfan Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    I do not understand after using your formula for non CO2 why anyone would even mess with CO2. I have 2 complete CO2 setups from back in the day that will never see use again in my tanks. I have no algae, good steady plant growth, never have gasping fish in the a.m. and use tiny amounts of nutrients. It does not get better than this. IMHO. Maybe I am a flat earther after all.
     
  12. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    2
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Not that long ago, a widely accepted study was published that "proved" that excess phosphates caused algae growth.

    Today it is claimed that excess nutrients don't cause algae, even though scientists consider nitrate and phosphate runoff to be the main cause of excessive algae growth in Chesapeake Bay and other bodies of water.

    Some say that one must spend hundreds of dollars to buy special dirt to grow aquatic plants well.

    Today many people deny that genetics has any significant effect on intelligence.

    I wonder what people will think of these "generally accepted truths" in 2015?

    By the way, parts of the world are, indeed, flat. :)

    Bill
     
  13. jimjim

    jimjim Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Is it just me or are we not slowly working our way back to the Innes "balanced aquarium theory". :D . I've kinda been pondering this (and using it more or less for about 40 years). Until Tom came along and did his studies I kinda thought the methods I used were Old and Decrepid and Out-of-Date. Thanks for vindicating us Tom.... :gw...BTW, The earth are flat!
     
  14. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    2
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    Innes' writings got me started in this hobby, and I am still biased in favor of the "balanced aquarium" approach.

    The main difference between Innes and Walstad is that he said that soil was too tricky for most people to use as a substrate, while Ms. Walstad's approach is based on using it. She says that it is fairly easy to use.

    Which, based on my experience, it is.

    Bill
     
  15. jimjim

    jimjim Junior Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: The Earth Is Flat!!!!!

    I've very seldom used soil in aquariums. Mostly I use blasting sand and have been very sucessful with it. For a long time I used Miracle-Grow house plant food at about 1/2 strength and put 1 drop/gal occationally(1 or 2 a week) depending on what the plants looked like. Kinda like a modified Barr method. It worked well in the 60s, 70s, and most of the 80s until I learned :eek: that I was wrong. "They" said you can't do it that way! .. Well, I still think the earth are flat!!!....Jim(just another Old Fart thats thinks his way is the only way) :gw
     
Loading...

Share This Page