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The balance...

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by JKKomm, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Hi guys,


    I'm hoping you can offer some insight.


    29 gallon:


    1 crypt, healthy having multiple runners


    Too many Staurogyne repens (carpet)


    8 Ludwigia repens



    3 Ludwigia broad leaf



    5-8
    Rotala Nanjenshan


    4 Ludwigia Peruensis


    Java Fern


    I'm dosing after water change EI with slight tweaks (1/4 tsp kno3) (2x kh2po4). Standard measurements of k2s04, gh booster, and 1/4tsp of mg).


    Kh2p04 was increased to remedy the gsa on the staurogyne repens.


    Macros on tuesday are standard EI minus the kn03. Supplementing with k2s04.


    Removal of kno3 was in effort to control the n03 production


    Macro on Thursday is EI standard with 1/4 tsp. kn03 with k2s04.


    Micros are EI CMSB+ with fe dtpa 11% on micro days.


    The gsa, has been stopped. The kn03 is measured approximately 20-30ppm throughout the week


    Co2... No reliable way to measure, but based on drop checker and ph test (7.8 out of tap) 6.0 by 12:00pm. Water was unreliabily measured to have a kh of 4. Inline GLA reactor. Co2 starts at 7:30am and off at 5:00pm


    Lighting is a finnex ray 2, on at 9:00am, off at 5:00pm. (Purely aesthetic) Coralife dual t5h0 with color max bulbs on at 8:00am, off at 9:00am, on at 12:00pm, off at 3:00pm, then on again at 5:00pm them off at 6:00pm


    Live stock is neon tetras, corys, snails, and some rcs. Fish are fine (no gasping).


    The issue I'm having is there is constantly having algae (hair like) on the filter output (more precise, at the exit hole on a eheim spray bar).


    Also, there is green algae on the older leaves of the Peruensis, and not on the new growth leaves. It's not gsa, more like a "carpet" on the leaves.


    In the coming week I week, amano shimp and more rcs with dwarf hair grass, and Rotala Magenta will be coming in.


    I'm also worried with such a drastic ph drop (c02) my new shrimp will not survive. The nerite snails are dying, and I had about 20 rcs, 3 survived. If I back off the c02, then the tank imbalances even more...if I back off the co2 and ferts...more imbalance?


    Thanks for the insight.
     
    #1 JKKomm, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2016
  2. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    oh boy.


    First the easy part: using Rotalabutterfly, what ppm micros and macros are you dosing? I am not sure what you mean by 2x KH2PO4.


    Regular EI or Half-EI should be fine. You don't need K2SO4 if you are dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4. Add GH Booster that has Ca and Mg in it. You don't need additional Mg.


    Get a degassed tap water pH reading. Let it sit for a coupe of days and measure it. It may not be 7.8. Don't make a decision on CO2 until you know for sure what your degassed tap pH is. Calibrate your probe with 4 and 7 buffer solutions. Or if probe is old, get a new one.


    Get a better reading on KH.
     
  3. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Pikez,


    Thanks, okay here are the results of degassed tap water


    PH 7.2 (1 week degassed)


    KH 4.4


    GH 8.3


    Ferts


    When I dose here are my macros, I haven't changed anything yet.


    K2S04: 7.5ppm


    K2HP04: 2.6ppm


    water change: add GH booster based off on rotala butterfly.


    When I dose KN03 it's: approximately 7.5ppm (1/4 tsp)


    Micros are


    Plantex CSMB+: Fe .5 ppm


    Mn .143 ppm


    Cu .007 ppm


    Mg .107 ppm


    Zn .028 ppm


    Mo .004 ppm


    B. .061 ppm


    dGH .025 ppm


    Dtpa Fe 11%: .5ppm


    All ppm's were taken from rotalabutterfly. Tomorrow is maintainence day, so I am open to what you have to say. I'll dose the GH Booster, but I'll hold off on the Mg.


    So based on kh and ph degassed at 1 week. In order to meet my co2 range at 1 ph drop (w/ the kh/ph table) my ph should be at 6.4 which would give me my range, but plants seem to do a lot better at a ph of -6.4 ( direct correlation by turning the co2 up just a bit.
     
    #3 JKKomm, Sep 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2016
  4. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Update. I have been following the rotalabutterfly measurements strickly, no deviation on any ferts to the milligram. Co2 is stable throughout the photo period (drop checker and ph test). Increased my plant mass.


    now it includes:


    9 vals


    5 A. REINECKII "MINI"


    anachris narrow leaf


    anubias hastifolia


    hygrophila pinnatifida


    here is another question. My tap water is hard. Based on testing it shows 150ppm GH. Unfortunately, the local water department water test do not show the hardness and mineral content of the water. Do I need GH booster with such hard water?


    What at do you guys think?
     
  5. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Okay... I have been on this regiment for about a month. Been noticing that some plants have taken a hit to some kind of deficiency. The signs are pinholes (lack of potassium), and overall stunned growth.


    Also some plants are lanky with small leaves (anacharis narrow leaf).


    Some plants are showing either a mg or Fe deficiency. Based on the aquatic plant deficiency post.


    And the reinekii (both types) are showing signs of green algae growing on the top of the leaves


    Adding to to the quagmire, the rotalabutterfly site say to add x amount of GH booster( di/ro water). My water is already hard. Adding that much will cause serious issues (I've tried).


    If I put more kno3 to increase my potassium, I will raise my no3 (currently running 80ppm).


    Hair algae has started to return after I nuked the tank with h2o2. .


    could really use your guys insight to this.


    P.s. My s. Repens went through a melt cycle also (read that this happens, but I don't know if this is just nature, or I somehow induced this).


    There is good new growth on some plants (cambomba, rotala, and ludwigia.


    co2 is approximately 30ppm at lights on and higher at lights off.
     
    #5 JKKomm, Nov 15, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2016
  6. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Ditch the gh booster, ditch the h2o2


    I suggest "heavy" water changes at this point and stop dosing, what is your substrate?


    If amazonia, then you should be good to go.
     
  7. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    If you are adding K2SO4, KNO3, and KH2PO4, you DO NOT have a potassium deficiency. Pinholes in your hygros (I assume that's where the pinholes are) is something else, not K deficiency.


    Unless you know exactly how much Mg and Ca is in your water, add both MgSO4 and CaSO4. Or just GH booster. That'll have even more K, so even less change of K def.


    If you nitrate is 80 ppm or thereabouts. Your water change routine is seriously off or that number is incorrect, or there is a bottleneck that is preventing the plants from absorbing the N.


    If you are dosing CSM+B to give you Fe level of 0.5 ppm, then you can drop that to half or even quarter of what you are doing. You'll be fine at 0.1 ppm to 0.2 Fe per dose. You can dose a little extra iron if tops are getting pale and white. But 0.1 ppm Fe as proxy will give you plenty of the non-iron traces. There may be no harm in higher levels of traces, but it is shocking how little traces plants need to survive.


    Focus on maintenance and husbandry.


    Try this:

    1. Massive water changes. Start with one big water change a day for 2-3 days. Then begin dosing again after 2-3 days.
    2. Clean gravel, filter. Trim plants, remove algae manually.
    3. Lower light.
    4. Increase CO2 and flow a little bit. May be try ph drop of 1.2 instead of 1.0.
     
  8. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Strungout substrate is a inert sand and fluorite.


    Pikez. That is exactly what I was thinking, that somehow the plants are not absorbing the nitrate. That is why initially I went with 2.0ppm of phosphate.


    okay.


    1. I'll do some 90% water changes over the next 2-4 days.


    2. gravel has just been siphoned today (last 30%) over the course of a couple of days.(figure the extra organics in the substrate might be the issue)


    3. The only way for me to lower the light is to put my coralife t5ho on...with maybe one bulb (never tried it, so I don't know if it will work/or one colormax and one 6500k bulb)


    4. My co2 0h drop is lower than 6.0 by 2pm. And runs till 5pm and I'll lower the cam+b to half.


    Based on previous reading changing everything is not a good idea (or is it situational).


    I get the reason for the big water changes...reset the tank.


    Second question, again if I do 90% water changes, won't that also create a imbalance with the co2 running and no ferts thus having the algae take advantage? I'm not arguing, just trying to validate the "lack of ferts will not prevent algae, but due to the imbalance will cause it" statements all over the net.


    thanks guys for your insight...
     
    #8 JKKomm, Nov 15, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2016
  9. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Update.


    Okay here is the scoop.


    Hair algae is under control. With the addition of amano shrimp, heavy water changes, maintence schedule and husbandry refined what little hair algae is there is easily removed and does not spread.


    Dosing was kept to 1/2 of rotalabutterfly recommendations:


    880 mg of kno3


    134 mg of kh2po4


    983 mg of GH booster


    220 mg of Plantex cam+b


    Light is a Coral life dual t5ho with a 6700k and 10k bulb running 7 hrs


    Co2 runs about 2 1/2 hrs before the light turns on and the ph drops from 7.2 to 6.2 by the time the lights turn on.


    With running this dosing regiment, and not over feeding the fish (every other day) my nitrates have stabilized about 40ppm on Sunday (water change day).


    This Sunday, i am now showing some unusual symptoms. The Anubias has GSA (maybe lack of phosphates, and my ludwigia repens, and ludwigia peruensis are turning green.


    Overall the plants are growing but not as vigorously as when I had the Finnex Ray 2 on (I assume due to the light or lack there of).


    To fix the GSA, I've increased my kh2po4 to 264 mg giving me approximately 2.6ppm of po4. Simultaneously, I've drop the micros to 1/4th the dosing.


    What at do you guys think?
     
  10. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    I think you are on the right track. Keep observing. Let the algae die off.


    Just be patient with it


    Are you sure its GSA or GDA? GSA being harder to get rid of and harder to scrub.


    I suggest not going back to the ray 2, as algae will have more light to feed off.
     
  11. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Strungout...that confirms it! It s GSA. Rubbing the Anubias with my fingers does not remove the GSA.


    Regarding not going back to the Ray 2. Besides a lower dosing of ferts, why is the peruensis and the ludwigia repens turning green?
     
  12. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    I believe light intensity is a factor for growing reds.


    them growing green doesn't mean they're unhealthy either. Reds can form in a wide range of ferts. I think intensity plays the main role. I still wouldn't suggest going back without stabilizing and little bit more experience.
     
  13. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    Thanks for all your help.


    update: okay....with the dosing regiment that was previously stated, and a little increase in co2 my hair algae is definitely over come (yay). The increase in po4 has taken effect on the GSA as that is starting to reduce (yay), but a new issue has emerged.


    the ludwigia peruensis is starting to get stunted and twisted new leaves, and the rotala nanjenshan, cambomba is starting to stunt also.


    thanks guys, I'm learning a lot with all your insights
     
  14. JKKomm

    JKKomm Junior Poster

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    First let me say, I really appreciate all your help with this.


    Okay update time:


    Changed the co2 devlivery to cerges reactor, much more stable co2 delivery.


    Dialed in the reactor, no micro bubbles in tank but flow was severely reduced (ball valve closed to 3/4 of the way). Compensated lack of flow with power head


    Over the past couple of weeks, I've noticed my ludwigia repens stunting. Everything I read says it was caused by co2 limitation.


    Also changed the light. Two Finnex planted+ in a staggered 7 hour photo period with a 1.75 hour noon burst. Need to up the co2 to compensate for the increased lighting.


    Systems been running a week like this, with the same ferts dosing except 0.1ppm or 100mg of 11% dtpa Fe was added.


    Color of green plants much healthier, ludwigia repens, ludwigia peruensis, anacharis, all rotala, s. repens, all recovering from stunted growth.


    Hair algae in dwarf hair grass is severely receding, with tremendous growth. Live stock is doing fine for the amount of co2 I'm running, took me over two weeks of upping the co2 to get to this point.
     
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