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tank yme: log 1

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by yme, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    first a couple of pictures:

    quite oke

    [​IMG]

    pale new growth and dirty algae covered older leaves:

    [​IMG]

    I took a leave a rubbed it on a white paper:

    [​IMG]

    not a great picture, but it seems a green round-shaped algae which is much smaller than GDA:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    algae on older leaves of vallisneria

    [​IMG]

    on echinodorus

    [​IMG]

    on blyxa

    [​IMG]

    on Alternanthera:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    half of the stems of mermaid weed have rotten away:

    [​IMG]

    In general: the tank is dirty. lot's of little particles, algae, water not very clear.

    What worries is that I don't have to add a lot of PO4 and NO3. I guess that the rotting material provides that....

    now the specs:

    -1x a week 50% waterchange with 100% RO with sera mineral salt to 300 uS.
    -daily: 20 ml TMG. I vacuum as much as possible the free floating dirt away.
    -NO3: 20 mg/l measured with two reference solutions of 15 and 25 mg/l
    -PO4: above 1.5 mg/l. I virtually do not have to add any PO4. measured by hanna spectrophotometer.
    -CO2: 38 mg/l measured by oxyguard CO2 analyzer. 2x rhinox and an external aquamedic reactor.
    -filter: 1x eheim professional, 1x eheim professional 2.
    -powerheads: 2x 600 l/h --> very good flow in the tank!
    -light: near surface in the middle of the tank: 230 umol. near surface sides of the tank: 180 umol. near bottom middle of the tank: 70 umol. 10 hours light.

    Maybe a bit too much: I have today lowered the light to 180 umol near the surface in the middle of the tank.

    In general, I cannot see why I have such huge problems. the light doesn't seem to be that high. but maybe a little bit less is wise.....

    greets,

    yme
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    If it's a CO2 or nutrient issue, then lowering the light to say 40-50micmol at the bottom will be about as low as you might go. This would show if it's a CO2/nutrient issue.

    Otherwise, I'd look for some other factors, the RO sera salts etc, how you prune, clean and trim, particularly allow the plants to over grow some more before trimming etc.

    I've only seen issues with P palustris with poor light/CO2.
    It's called mermaid "weed" for good reason. I've seen acres and acres of it.

    What types of algae eaters and how many do you have in the tank?
    Otto cats, Amano shrimp, SAE's(they can harm R wallichii however), Rubber nose plecos etc. I'd add a lot of shrimp and some ottos personally.

    Looks like a lot of mulm and detritus in the tank to me.
    I've seen tanks like this with this same algae.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    hi tom,

    I totally agree that it looks like a tank that has not been maintained for quite a while. dirty, mulm, dedritus, not deding to add a lot of PO4 etc. clearly something is wrong.

    we can rule out a couple of things: micro's (20 ml daily should be enough), PO4 en NO3 (plenty), CO2 levels (38 mg/l should be enough if there is enough current).

    leaves the minor things that you are mentioning: pruning, cleaning etc.

    I guess the sera sea salt is good: bjorn (a guy from belgium) has quite a nice tank using sera sea salt:

    2007 AGA Aquascaping Contest

    Personally, light is this moment the biggest susect. Although the reading from the PAR meter were rather disapointing in terms of too much light.

    crittes:
    -I bought 10 amano shrimps 2 weeks ago, now I see none. maybe the high co2 levels killed them. then I have 2 SAE and 2 flagfish.

    oto's are probaly a good idea: guress that they like the soft green algae :D

    thanks!

    yme
     
  6. rich815

    rich815 Guru Class Expert

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    I'm having similar issues in some respects. I suspect it's not your lighting or nutrients but your more crowded plants conditions and mulm and debris. What are you doing to ensure complete CO2 dispersement and good water movement and flow? I looked back over my notes and it seems I started getting algae similar to your first algae above when I switched from a Koralia 2 to a Koralia 1 (and mistakenly thinking the 1 was enough movement) and also not vacuuming as much as I used to back in the corners and between the more crowded stems resulting in stagnant areas, less CO2 being dispersed around and debris rotting away in some pockets of some areas.
     
  7. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    hi rich,

    these pics I took when I changed my water:

    left side tank:

    [​IMG]

    I normally have 2 small removable "backgrounds" in an angle of 45 degrees in the left and right corner. I remove them when I change the water. So you see the outlet of an eheim professional II, in the back. when the background is placed, the outlet is in an horizontal 45 degrees angle. the more to the left and front outlet is coming from the external aquamedic co2 reactor, powered by an eheim 1060. you also see an powerhead of 600 l/h that blows the water t the front glass. (the green line goes upwards above the waterline, so you don't see it when the tank is normally running)

    right side tank:

    [​IMG]

    In the front is the outlet of the eheim professional I. in the back the (second) outlet of the external aquamedic co2 reactor (I placed a T-piece after the eheim 1060).

    In each corner I have as well a rhinox diffusor (the biggest ones). on each difussor is the outlet of yet another powerhead of 600 l/h. I get smaller and better distrubution of the co2 microbubbles this way.

    and this is it!


    greets,

    yme
     
  8. ccLansman

    ccLansman Guru Class Expert

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    It looks like you only have lines for outlets; i would put a nozzle of some kind to fan out the water a bit, that way you get better circulation instead of jets. From the pics it looks exactly like what happened to my tank when i had poor circulation in one of the corners. I picked up a second koralia and fixed it right quick. I have a koralia 2, going across the front, and a koralia 1 along the back, + 2 outputs from my two can filters with nozzles spreading out the output. I get fantastic circulation and no junk on any of the leaves.

    also a pic from outside the tank looking in with both corners in view would give us a better feel for the setup.
     
  9. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    yeah, a koralia would be nice: they are only so big! maybe in the left and right back I could place one, but not in the front. I don't lwant to see them. but if I place one in the back, how close can you place the plants in order not to blow them away? The setup that I have now is reasonable in that respect. and all the leaves are moving in the current.

    here an overview:

    [​IMG]

    left corner: the inlet is there so I can easily vacuum daily all the dirt/mulm on the plants.

    [​IMG]

    right side:

    [​IMG]

    the rhinox difussor with the outlet of the powerhead:

    [​IMG]

    greets,

    yme
     
  10. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    as you could see from the pics, I did yesterday a big waterchange. I also adjusted the light so that it was 180 umol at the surface and 50 umol at the bottom. Today I measured again and wow!!!! at the surface it was still 180, but at the bottom the PAR value was increased to 100 umol. twice as much!!! so much for a stable tank during the week. :mad: .

    but you can now nicely measure that the water get's less transparant and dirty during the week. let's now measure how fast this goes!

    greets,

    yme
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Try shooting for 45ppm of CO2, 8-10 hours at most light, Try 2x a week water changes(cannot over do these). Move the probe around and see what ranges you get.

    Add some carbon to the filter or purigen etc, clean out the filters good.

    Get any dead or old leaves out of the tank.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    already? In my opinion I shouldn't change multiple variables in one time. Then you don't know what caused what.

    Despite the modest reduction in light, I definitely see a difference: pearling starts only 2-3 hours before the lights go out again and is very modest. Metabolism is for sure a gear down.

    I would say: let's see how the tank reacts to this.

    the waterchanges can be twice a week. Although the effort is to much in the long run (been there, done that :( )

    greets,

    yme
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Sounds good ten, yes, I agree 2x a week is a lot, but try the filter carbon and a few good cleanings, leave the plants alone from trimming etc for a bit, let them over grow at least a week longer than you normally do, try replanting only smaller % of the tank at a tme.

    I think they will help much more too.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    right! :D

    active carbon, that's quite a while since I have used that. maybe I have some (maybe not...). In any case, if I remember correctly, the carbon binds quite some micro elements. shoud I increase the TMG dosage as a correction? or is the binding capacity rather minor?

    and before I forget: purigen is not available in holland. we do have a product from easylife which also should make the water clear. The ingredients are a secret, but some quess that it a form of very small zeolite particles. Could try it...

    greets,

    yme
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    There's no secret to purigen or the like, just DI resins that are weaker binding etc.

    Carbon has little if any effect on fertilizers.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    well, sooner than I expected, but I want to place an update after 5 days.

    In general: I am going in the right direction!!! tank looks cleaner, less mulm/dirt and less algae. (which i partly due to the 20 amano shrimps that I added. I am really surprised that changes can be seen this quickly.

    some pics:

    the caulescens is recovering

    [​IMG]

    nice new growth on the roseafolia minor. old leaves still covered in algae.

    [​IMG]

    nice new growth in blyxa. old leaves still covered in algae.

    [​IMG]

    commelinaceae sp green. is greener!!! . much shrimp shit can be seen every morning. the amano's are doing great!

    [​IMG]

    part 1
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'd not worry much about old leaves, just the new ones;)

    That's the sign to watch for.

    Good, you have suffered more than many have:p

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  18. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    as you can see from the pics, I added also some new plants like the rotala macrandra.

    In addition, I also got some new ammania. They arrived 6 days ago in quite good condition, but are now (after the light reduction) stunted. So clearly, something is not right. that's the second reason that I post this early....

    [​IMG]

    options:
    -CO2 --> the probe gives between 32 and 38 mg/l, varying a bit for some kind of reason. the leaves are moving in the current... not enough?

    -light: I thought that they had quite some light, but I measured only 30 umol. they are a bit shaded by the pogestemon. (as comparison the rosaefolia minor has 67 umol)
    but not enough light could induce stunting??? in any case, with this little light, their metabolism should be quite slow, so I am not sure why I see this fast stunting. I now placed one stem in between the blyxa to get more light.

    -the old fairytale about Mg/Ca? GH is 5.5. Mg should be 4 mg/l. Ca 30 mg/l. The only reason why I say this is that the pogestemon is going ratty the last 5 days:

    [​IMG]

    A month ago you advised me the cut back on the sera mineral salts: from 500 to 300 uS. Maybe the lowering in Mg and Ca is appearing only now. (this is the mistake that I made: multiple variables: what caused what). I measured the light that the pogestemon gets: 130 umol for the highest stem and 80 for the lowest stem. I do not see a correlation with light and rattyness.

    PO4 still around 1.5-2 mg/l. NO3 between 15-25 mg/l. TMG 20 ml/day. twice /week 50% waterchange.

    greets,

    yme
     
  19. yme

    yme Lifetime Charter Member
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    ah, I saw that you posted in between part 1 and 2 :D

    I am not there yet! (although on the right track)

    greets,

    yme
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Current seems fine, you might push the CO2 just a touch higher.

    Light seems fine as well.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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