This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

Switching from a hob to a canister filter on a 5 week old tank, algae problems!

Discussion in 'Aquascaping' started by rs18alpha, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    I'm going to go with an Eheim canister filter on my 40 gal tank. The Fluval 70 hob on the tank now doesn't do a good enough job. After a few days or so the water always gets cloudy. And I'm having an akgae problem now as well.
    As every body knows there's not enough media in a hob.
    I use CO2
    I have an extra in tank filter and a power head. But I still can't get the water clear. The tank cycled in pretty good. I'm wondering if it may be an algae bloom??
    When I set up the tank I started to dose the EI method from day one. With the lights on for 8 hours a day from day one.

    Please answer each question separately, Thank you.

    Question: When I start to use the canister filter should I start dosing from day one?
    Q: And should I dose the full amount?
    I checked the calculator for the proper ppm for each fert. So I think I'm good there.
    Q: If you want to tell me what levels per dose of the N,P,K and trace I need per dose that would let me know if I had the right figures.

    Q; Should I start off with high CO2 or start slow? I always struggle with this part. Am I looking for 30ppm of CO2?

    I use a Twinstar 900S led. This is a pretty bright light.
    Q; Should I start off 8 hrs a day or less?? I see a lot of different opinions on this.

    I have algae on my Manzanita wood.
    Q: How can I get this off the wood before I put it back in the tank? I don't want to put it in the tank with algae on it.

    I have Fluval Stratum substrate. And some sand. I'm going to leave the Fluval in the tank since it's 5 weeks old. And I'm going to add more Fluval Stratum.

    I've never been able to get this tank clear and not have an algae problem. I'm hoping that switching to a canister will be a good start. I'll try to plant as heavy as possible from the start.

    Q: Is there a preferred placement for the intake and outtake of the canister filter when it comes to water flow?

    I'm hoping with switching to the canister I can finally have clear water and good filtration for once.
    After that I can concentrate on getting the proper CO2 levels and the right light duration so I can have a tank that's not covered in Algae!!

    Thanks for your time.
     
    #1 rs18alpha, Oct 27, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  2. David Cottle

    David Cottle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    Use hydrogen peroxide to kill the algae on your driftwood, brush scrub the residue off before returning the wood to the tank.
     
  3. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    234
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    The light you're running is a 65 watt LED @4900 lumens, looks light a pretty high powered fixture. I didn't see any way to reduce the amount of light on the fixture controls, I would go less than 8 hours when you're starting out. Save yourself the headache and go something like 6.5 hours.

    Which Eheim canister are you going to get?
     
  4. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,011
    Likes Received:
    94
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    The brighter the light you have the more important it is to use enough CO2. It looks like this light is one of the brightest you can get, but the manufacturer doesn't bother to tell us how much light it produces. You probably need to make sure you have enough CO2 from the day you set up the tank. That can be a tricky process, because there is no one number that you can be sure equals "enough" CO2. How are you diffusing the CO2 into the water? How are you determining that you are using enough? When you have that much light, and algae problems, you can almost be sure you are not getting enough CO2 in the water.
     
  5. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Sorry i missed you last night.

    I'm using one of those stainless steel diffusers with a ceramic disc. It makes pretty small bubbles. Almost like a mist.
    I ran out of test strips today, I'll be getting more on Monday. I tried a drop checker but I don't like them, I don't think they work very well IMOP.
    Question: When is the best time to test the CO2?
    Q: Should I be trying to get 30ppm of the CO2?
    When I switch to the canister I'l reduce the lights from 8 hrs to 6 1/2 or maybe 6 hrs to start like Kyalgae suggested.

    Using the EI dosing I'll be adding 7.5ppm of KNO3 and 1.332 KH2PO4 per dose 3 times a week.
    And .02 fe from the CSM+B per dose 3 times a week.
    Rest on day 7
    50% weekly WC

    Question: If I reduce the lights and get the correct CO2 should I adjust the dosing amounts?

    If I missed anything let me know.

    Thanks..
     
  6. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    I'm going with the Pro 4+ 350
     
  7. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    639
    Local Time:
    3:28 AM
    A hob was all i had back in the day. Got by fine and gReat. CAN I really suggest you look into a wet/dry filter if your into media/bacteria establishment/and just generally cleaner water, thats if you go for the upgrade. Not reading the whole post, can say algae problems are not from the hob, even if its low flow and low circulation.
     
  8. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    I thought about a wet dry set up, but my space is limited, Also I already got the new Eheim. Thanks for the info.
     
  9. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Canister filter is good enough. Don't get rid of the hang-on-back filter until canister is mature.

    I suspect the real problems are elsewhere - too much light and unknown CO2.

    Focus on CO2. Reduce light intensity and duration. LED manufacturers are in an arms race, each producing brighter lights than the other. This is not a good thing. Until you have really stable and rich CO2 level, high light + EI ferts combo will backfire on you. If you are using a low-tech approach, you can afford to take your eyes off CO2. But in any high-tech tank, the first few months are all about water changes and dialing in CO2.

    You will need a KH test kit (preferably Lamotte), a digital pH meter + probe, and an over-sized reactor to get to the next level on CO2. Don't think of CO2 in terms of ppm. Think in terms of pH drop. Don't bother looking up pH/KH/CO2 charts and calculators, as they are a total waste of time. Find out what your KH is. Get a solid reading of your degassed tap water (put an airstone in a gallon of water for 24 hours and measure pH). Then dose enough CO2 to drop your pH about 1.0. Don't worry about bubble per second. Don't bother with drop checkers.

    The sooner you do this, the better. If the above seems daunting, then you have to back off on lights and ferts until you are ready.
     
    Phishless likes this.
  10. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    234
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM

    Hey Pikez, Is the part number for that LaMotte kit 4491-DR-01?
     
  11. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Yes.
     
  12. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Thanks for the help. That is a lot to think about, I'll check in to the stuff you suggested.
    As far as reducing the fert amounts and lights. I'll try 6.5 hours of light. Should I cut back to 1/2 the dosing amount?
     
  13. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Yes on less light and half ferts...until you are able to do it right with CO2. Also need to think about reducing light intensity until CO2 is fixed.

    You need to reduce intensity AND duration. It's like when doctors tell people to eat more fruits and vegetables. People nod and then eat more fruits. :)
     
    slipfinger likes this.
  14. rs18alpha

    rs18alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    25
    Local Time:
    11:28 AM
    Sounds good.The light I have is not adjustable. It's 4 inches above the water level. I'll have to rig something up to raise it. that's the only way to reduce the intensity.
     
  15. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2017
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    78
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM

    Is it really too much light?

    I ran a Rotalabutterfly calculation on the OP light intensity and came up with 74 PAR and 1.45 Watt per gal. For comparison, my 75 gal has 62 PAR and 1.5 Watt per gal, and I always thought I have medium light only. Am I wrong that I actually have too much light, not too little.

    upload_2017-11-1_19-56-39.png


    I agree that it's difficult to figure out CO2 ppm. I like the idea of using pH drop to determine the adequacy of CO2 and forget about bps, drop checker or ppm. However, I don't understand why you suggest using degassed tap water as the starting point rather than degassed tank water at the start of photo period as the starting point. Please explain.

    Lastly, I like to comment that the OP shouldn't blame on the canister for the algae. There are many reasons why algae popped up, and every hobbyist, specially newbie, has to deal with algae sooner or later. I have been successful in controlling algae by spot spraying with hydrogen peroxide, dosing Excel, and providing stable CO2.
     
  16. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    234
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    Has the PAR calculator been updated to every single kind of LED chip, the calculator is using CREE chips, I don't think those are CREE chips in that Twinstar retina burner? How can it know the output of the fixture without those specifications? I use 35 watt LED floods for an outdoor vehicle, and those things are bright as heck, that's a 65 watt led over a small tank....can I test that light for my nighttime offroad drives? :p
     
  17. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2017
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    78
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    If the OP light is indeed what you cited: 65 watt LED @4900 lumens. The calculator is not too far off as the calculated lumen is 5298, about 8% over rated above 4900. I also judge that the OP has only 1.45 watt/gal. which is in the medium light range based on the T12 rule even after adjusting upward 50%. Most commercial LED listed their light to be 30-50 % more efficient than comparable CFL, and I assume 50% above T12.

    Simply looking bright to our eye does not mean it is bright enough for plants. LED always look brighter than other light because the light originates from point sources and is highly directional.

    I notice many hobbyists use two Finex lights to grow stem plants, which is twice as powerful as the OP. I presently have 1.5 watt/gal and 132000 lumens for my 75 gal, comparable to the OP light intensity, and still not enough for stem plants.
     
  18. slipfinger

    slipfinger Article Editor
    Staff Member Lifetime Member Article Editor

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2016
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    470
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    It's too much light if your tank is not fully established, you are over fertilizing and do not have stable and rich Co2. @Pikez mentioned stable AND rich Co2 levels. Important point to note. Injecting Co2 at a high enough concentration is one thing, keeping that concentration stable and consistent through out your photo period, day after day is another.
     
    Mike k likes this.
  19. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    234
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    I was really trying to emphasize is that LED chips vary a ton, take this BML fixture by fluence bioengineering. They make commercial led grow lights. Notice the difference in PAR using this LED chip vs a CREE chip in the calculator using your numbers. Getting close to 300 par. If he's getting nonstop algae and throws a top-of-the-line led on things it could be frustrating if the algae gets worse. mSuUluT.png
     
  20. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2017
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    78
    Local Time:
    6:28 AM
    If you are referring to the entire universe of LED, there are many diode type and the output is highly variable. But for aquarium strip lights, the diodes are typically 0.1, to 0.5 watt each. so the output is within a narrow range. I believe high power Finex and Plant Plus use 0.5 watt diode,whereas cheap LED from Ebay use 0.1 to 0.2 watt diode.

    For aquarium strip light, "Cree" provides the best PAR estimate. You can verify it by comparing the calculator output with known PAR values posted in review threads in the Lighting forum. BML is no longer available for sale, and the calculated PAR values are suspect and unverifiable.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice