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Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by CyboRob, Aug 10, 2006.

  1. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    I just (an hour ago) switched from a vortex reactor to using a maxijet 600 powerhead (co2 line stuck in the intake) with a hydor 360 deflector. Kept my bubble rate the same, about one per second. Within the hour I saw a couple of my cardinals grab air from the surface, two of my emporer tetras huddled at the surface, and my panda corys running up and the sides of tank.

    Wow I did not expect such a effect! Glad I didn't leave the house for awhile.
    This setup is blowing super super fine bubbles to every corner of the tank. With the other setup the co2 was dissolved without bubbles, except a few bubbling out the bottom of the sponge then floating straight up.

    So what's going on? Is the mist to fine and bad for the fish? My ph was 6.47 and kh is somewhere between 2-3

    The attached pic is with the bubble count down turned down to about 20 bubbles per minute, ph is now at 6.82 and the fish are better. The pandas still are running around like crazy though.
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    I just solved a similar issue for someone about 2 hours ago.

    What is the surface movement like in the tank and the circulation?
    You should have some ripples on the surface, not a lot, but a good flow across the surface.

    During the day, this will mix the CO2 better, and blow off any excess, so you will lose a little also, that's okay, it's cheap, at night the added current will add more O2.
    During the day, the rapid pearling plants will add plenty of O2, the added current will help mix the O2 and the CO2.

    They act independently, but due to the plant growth/pearlingm, there is a relationship.

    You will also note a much improved fish health and plant health if you add the surface movement and the mist.

    Mist is too intense for many set ups with the surface moevement, but even reactors have this issue also.

    I think 6-7 x out 10, most folks have circulation issues rather than high CO2ppm issues directly, the CO2 is exacerbating the the low O2 effect on the fish and a little added O2 cures that right up.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Surface movement should be good? Aquaclear 20 on one side and emperor 280 on the other. Maxijet is off center towards the emperor. Tank is a 36gl bow front.

    The plants have been going crazy since adding presurized co2 and doing EI, trimmed out two handfuls today.

    Been fighting minor but stubborn staghorn though and that's why I just switched to mist.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Try using a canister filter with a spray bar, I think it'll do better for you.
    But make sure the water level is the same, those HOB filters radically change the flow depending on water evaporation and water level.

    You may just need better circulation.
    It is very critical actually in CO2 injection.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    When I switched to a bigger powerhead doing the CO2 mist thing I found that the powerhead current was very upsetting to the fish. I had to install the deflector on the output and aim it so the fish could easily avoid the current. Otherwise they did run around the tank in a "panic". If I understand right, you have a 36 gallon tank, and are now running about a bubble every 3 seconds. I use about 3 bubbles per second for my 29 gallon tank and no sign the fish are unhappy with it. Something doesn't seem right????
     
  6. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    I thought the canister filters do not put oxygen in the water as does a hob. What canister would you recommend for my tank?
     
  7. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Vaughn if I turned it up to 3 bubbles per second there would be no use in having the aquarium, you would not be able to effectively see the fish, the tank would be one big swirling mist of co2, lol, maybe not that bad, but, it was buggin me at 1 bps.

    I've attached a picture of my whole tank, maybe that will help.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    I think he meant 1 bubble every 3 seconds, that's what I add to my 20 gal tank.

    You could use more plants, some foreground plants.
    A canister would look better and be easier over time.
    the spray bars help a lot and the water level is less critical.

    I like the Via Aqua brand, every bit as good as Ehiem and about 1/2 the cost.
    Some like Rena, some like Ehiem etc.

    Get the mid sized version, 200 gph size.

    The power head you use for the CO2 need not be larger, just the filter flow blasting the current around can improve things for you.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Nope, my CO2 bubble counter says about 3 per second, and the impeller noise supports that - about three pops a second, followed by an occasional blast. And, I still occasionally get some BBA new growths on driftwood and hardware. Before I had it this high BBA was sprouting everywhere all the time.

    In less than a month I will be replacing my 29 gallon tank with a 45 gallon one, using all the same hardware, so I will see how that works. Right now I am primarily just trying to have a tank full of plants for when I make the switch over.
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    I add 3 bubbles/second to a 150 gal tank.

    1/8" ID tubing.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Vaughn what kinda bubble counter do have?
    I am just manually counting the bubbles but does seem to concur with what Tom is saying. I would have a dead tank in hours at 3 bubbles per second.




    Tom I searched Froggle for the Aqua Via brand didn't get any of the main online stores supplying that brand, I think Pet Solutions had them. Kinda worried about that and future support of the product then.
    Do you know of a place to get them?

    What would be your next choice?
     
  12. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    My bubble counter is one I made from a syringe. It is the body of the syringe, with a plastic check valve stuck thru the plunger piston, which has the plunger stem cut off, and the check valve/piston glued into the body to avoid any leaks. The needle end is a good fit inside my tubing, but is clamped to be sure of no leaks. I would suspect leakage, but the rate of bubbles going up the counter just about exactly matches the burping noises from the rotor. Very obviously not nearly all of that CO2 dissolves into the water, but with a CO2 mist you don't expect or want it to. I will do a lot more experimenting and checking when I move everything into the bigger tank.

    That tank will have a continuous water change system, and has about 50% bigger footprint, but the same length as the 29 gallon tank, and is about 3 inches deeper. Much better for aquascaping.
     
  13. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Ok then, I am thinking your bubbles must be alot smaller then the ones in my bubble counter. That has to account for the difference in our bubble counts.
     
  14. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    It is entirely possible that bubble size accounts for at least half of the difference, but I doubt if it accounts for all of it. I used to have two bubble counters in series - the Milwaukee one on the regulator and a built-in one on the Eheim diffuser. Those disagreed by a factor of about 3, because the diffuser counter saw much smaller bubbles.
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Hi,
    I think Marine Depot sells them:

    http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_filters__index.asp?CartId=

    And all things Ehiem.

    So you can decide.

    The Tom's*(no relation) nano canister is cool, 80 gph, 37$.

    The Via Aqua 300 is about right, get extra sponge sets.
    Your bubble rate is still pretty high even with the size diameter issues.

    But you have a good avatar!
    Botia are one of my favorite genera.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. CyboRob

    CyboRob Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Switched Co2 to mist, Fish gasping for air

    Very good, thanks for the help, advice and avatar comment. I love those two!
    Bought them to clear out my snails but they really are a pair of comedians, love watching them.



    Rob


    Update: I just wanted to add some info that changes the thread and info contained.

    Ok I was treating a two of my three Rummynose tetras for what looked like to be some type of fungal growth. It's on the top part of their heads right behind the red part, some metalic golddust looking spotting.
    I was using Pimafix and Melafix.

    I thought something was strange when the one rummy that didn't have any of this spotting started breathing really hard and hiding in the back acting sick. Starting searching forums and found that these meds can cause the fish to start to have trouble breathing. Yesterday on my lunch break at the LFS the guy I was telling all this to, said it might just be some natural color that developed on the rummys.

    Ok I get home last night and put some carbon in the filter container to start removing the meds, this morning the one rummy was still hiding out and breathing hard from what I could tell with the lights out, but, tonight when I got home from work he was breathing only half as hard as last night and is partly schooling with his two buddies, and came right out to eat when dinner was served. :)

    Ok ... everyone is breating easier now including myself.

    Still questions remain and more observation and experimentation needs to be done. I've brought my co2 up about 40 bps and the fish look fine, still 20 less than when I swicthed. Tommorrow after work I'll bring it back up to 60 and see what happens then.

    I apologize to everyone for not mentioning the meds, but I did not even think about their effects until after my one rummy started panting.

    Thanks again for the help.



    Rob
     
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