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Suspicious to Disease

Discussion in 'Fish for Planted Tanks' started by Steven, Sep 22, 2009.

  1. Steven

    Steven Guru Class Expert

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    Hello all. My planted tank have been cycled for 1.5 months ago and 8 of otocinclus affinis have been added from the first month and so and they've lived perfectly in there. Two weeks later, I started to introduced 10 of cardinal tetras that I bought from my LFS and 3 days ago when I was feeding them, I noticed that one of them scratch its body to the plants and rock a few times make me suspicious if it has been infected with ich/white spot disease.

    Today, I noticed that a couples of them have a single or two little tiny white spot (I can't confirm on this 100%) on either tail or fins also some of them become like to hide amongst the plants, an unusual behavior from the 1st day although they seem to feed like normal.

    What do you think I should do? If in any case that they are sick, how to cure them in planted tank since some of the plants that I know are very sensitive to medication ingredients. Should I quarantine them in temporary tank, how to make sure that my main tank have free from bacteria when they have been cured and ready to come back to the main tank? Lastly, should I quarantine the oto's too or do they immune to this kind of ich/white spot disease?

    Thank you very much for you help in advance.
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Quarantine Word of the Day

    Hi Steven,

    Not to preach (of course you know that is what I am going to do), but this is why we quarantine (I would say everything) everybody no matter what the source, a minimum of two weeks. I like three to six weeks. I quarantine when moving between my own tanks.;)

    That is behind us, we have a problem to deal with, do not wait to absolutely confirm Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, or “ich/ick”. Understanding and Treating Ich or White Spot is a nice site for basic explanation; remember though she is operating from an African Cichlid prospective.;)

    I believe the safest treatment in your case is simply to raise the temperature one degree Celcius (1 or 2F) to 30 C (86F) and hold for 7-10 days, I think the article I pointed you to recommends 10 days. I have found 5 days to be sufficient but I always add to more days at minimum cause I am a coward, (explains my quarantine and sterilization policy as well).

    The downside of this method is of course many mosses aren't going to like it and any cooler temperature fish won't either.:(

    At the higher temperature you may need to provide more surface aggitation. A small air pump and stone will do just fine.

    Good luck,

    Biollante
     
  3. Steven

    Steven Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks so much for the link, Biollante. After read it, I became so exhausted :(. First, the plant surviving struggle and then algae and now fishes diseases :(. Should raising the temp to 30C for 10 days be enough? I'm too worried that it will strike back. Also I think it'll be a difficult task to catch all the fishes into quarantine tank especially they are in heavily planted tank :(.

    I think I'll just leave them be for now and wait until the fishes become heavily infested and weak if they are really ich infested now, in that time I'll quarantine them and cured with market products or in bad case, euthanasia. I'll leave my display tank fish less for 1 month then in order to wait for the ich bacteria to die itself (is 1 month enough?) meanwhile preparing another quarantine tank for new fishes. I feel too bad if all of my otocinclus (8 of them) will be infected and then die. They are hard to come and very expensive at least in my LFS in my country and they are not everytime available. Oh..oh..oh...:(
     
  4. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    I would not wait. If you wait for the fish to become heavily infested you are just making things that much harder for you and them. Raise the tank a degree or two and let it run. If you run it at that temp the life cycle on the ich will run its course and they will nearly all die off or at least be such a small number it's pretty much the same thing. Cardinals are sensitive to salt so you probably do not want to add any. I think ottos might be as well.

    Do look into the QT tank. It doesn't have to be fancy and even a tupperware type storage bin will work fine. It just has to be non toxic and hold water for the few weeks or more. If you need to medicate it's much easier to do so. Also, I've found all my cardinals to be cowards. They're always in the plants. The only time they don't seem to do that is when I have a school of 20+ in which case they seem to be much braver.

    -
    S
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Lesson Paid For

    Hi Steven,

    You learned a lesson the hard way. You have paid for the lesson so move along.;)

    Quarantine isn’t the big all consuming task many make it out to be, what shoggoth43 told you and what I told you is true and really quite simple, more of a habit than anything.:)

    Now that you have a problem take steps before the lesson gets more expensive. Again what shoggoth43 said is correct. Cardinal Tetras and Ottos don’t like salt or for that matter many of the medicines.

    Raising the temperature, begin now, is the safest easiest solution. Ten days is in fact more than enough, to break the cycle, ten days gives you some extra room, a margin for error.

    Solutions do not have to be complicated or expensive to be effective.

    Take care of this and we’ll talk if you wish.

    Fish and plants want to live and grow; we tend to over complicate the process. Remember you do not have to understand all the science, or really any of it to be successful. Just as I don’t need to understand the science or technology of this computer, of the internet, communication systems, fiber optics or satellites to use this website, all I have to do is follow a few basic instructions and plunk away at some keys on a keyboard. (Some say I plunk away at random on the keyboard.):eek:

    Biollante
     
  6. Steven

    Steven Guru Class Expert

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    Suddenly I feel encouraged by the two of you :) Thank you very much shoggoth43 and Biollante.

    What I will do tomorrow is quarantine the 10 of the Cardinals but leave the Oto's intact. The reason is I don't see any white spot on Oto's...for now :) and meanwhile rising the main tank temp to 30 (right now my main tank temp is 27-28C with one fan and will switch off the fan to see if it will climb to 30C).

    Next, I will observe as close as posibble to the 10 Cardinals in QT for about 1 month and will not medicate if there is no disease occur, right?.

    Just for note, today I noticed that my Cardinals seem to fight each other (only 2 of them) in the plants while the remaining is watching. Is this event weird or not common knowing that their behavior is peaceful? Thank you very much once again and wish me luck, ok?
     
  7. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    My black neons are very abusive towards the cardinals. I suspect you've got a couple males vying for top dog status. Unless it gets to the point of serious damage I wouldn't worry too much. You can also rearrange some of the plants to throw them all off and force them to figure out the new pecking order if it turns out to be a territorial thing.

    Good luck!

    -
    S

     
  8. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Steven,

    Disputes amongst cardinals is nothing to worry about. They will never do any damage other than MAYBE a nipped fin.

    Even their territories are very small.

    No need to rearrange the tank for it. It is a good thing to see, as it is an indicator of good health.

    Cardinals do not always appreciate fast or bigger fish:) I have kept them for years with many different species, and they seem happiest alone or with pencils or some other very inocuous fish..

    However, I kept them for years with rummy noses which are VERY quick with no issues lol.

    My shoal is pretty much alone except for a few espei pencils and some sunset platies, and while they are out more, they still like the shelter/shade of the plant thickets.

    I think as they are food fish in the wild, they are very aware of being prey...
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Quarantine Forward

    Hi Steven,

    I recommend just leaving the Cardinals in the tank, they don't mind the temperature and since the tank is infected or presumed infected you may as well treat them all, no medications, just raised temperature. ;)

    Start the quarantine from now on, I even hold plants, I am not a fan of dips for plants as anything but a last resort, sometimes we find interesting extras.

    I believe in sanitizing or sterilizing everything else if at all possible. I like as much control as possible over what is in my tanks.:)

    I also agree with Gerry (well, of course) disputes among Cardinals are so common it would scare me if I didn't see them 'bargaining' with one another.:eek:

    Biollante
     
  10. Steven

    Steven Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you all folks, I feel very relieve to have you all great friends helping me and to know that the behavior of the Cardinal as I previously stated considered normal :). As right now, I have raise the temp to nearly 30C with all the fishes (10 Cardinals and 8 Otos) in it and plan to hold the temp for 10 days. After 10 days, I will post the result and hopefully that all of them just doing fine and the ich die completely :D. Wish me luck ;)
     
  11. Steven

    Steven Guru Class Expert

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    It was actually worked :). All of my cardinals have been freed from white spot and now just doing fine after 10 days of raising the temp to 29-31C. Although I lost one of them mysteriously during 3 days blackout (to kill some algae) and no dead body was found :(. Phew...I am happy with the result and special thanks to Biollante, Gerryd and shoggoth43 for your advice. What a simple solution but yet very effective. Thank you guys.
     
  12. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Glad to help.

    Keep us posted on your progress.

    -
    S
     
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