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Stunting rotala and white downoi??

Discussion in 'Advanced Strategies and Fertilization' started by Jon Rupprecht, May 17, 2006.

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  1. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    I have recently been having a few problems in my tank and am looking for some suggestions to correct them. First the problems
    #1 Rotal green and rotoundfolia both are coming in with stunted tips. Its not all the plants just a couple here and there the rest look great.
    #2 I have a pretty big patch of downoi plants and a few are looking pretty pale in color almost white in the new growth. Otherwise they seem to be growing fine. Again its not all, maybe 5-10 plants out of the 74 I have in the tank
    #3 Green algae appearing on the top leaves of my ludwigia repens "rubin" and palustris.Also on some of the leaves of a blyxa aubertie (sp?) Its pretty soft and you can rub it off if you try. Its not cyno I know that but not sure what kind it is.

    The tank is 75 gallons, lighting is 2x55 ahsupply kit and 3 x54 ho t5 tubes with sunlight supply reflectors. Lighting is staggered so maximum watts are on for 5 hours a day. Total lighting period 11 hours.
    Water is ro/di reconstituted with equilibrium to 6 dgh and baking soda to 4 dkh. Will be switching to Barrs gh booster as soon as eq is gone. Water ph totally outgassed is 7.6 brought down to 6.3 via co2
    Substrate is 100% eco complete. EI doseing 1/2 tsp kno3 3/32 tsp po4 every other day with 20 ml TMG for micros 3x week
    Am I missing something or adding too little of something? I've been trying 30 ml TMG 3x week for the white downoi with no improvement. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks!
     
    #1 Jon Rupprecht, May 17, 2006
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Seems like something else, the description sounds like low CO2, stunted tips in a few plants is a commom as is the algae you describe.

    NO3 to some degfee also, but you do have a lot of light.

    Personally, I'd use the 3 T5s and that's it.

    Try that.

    Stick with everything else, add just a tad more CO2, add the 3 T5's for 10 hours.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #2 Tom Barr, May 18, 2006
  3. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Thanks for the reply Tom. Do you think the downoi color has to do with the co2 also? The bubble count is so high now I can't even try to count it! Its going into a inline reactor on the output of a eheim 2217 filter.
    Also, it doesn't seem like the tank uses nitrates very quickly at all. It is very heavily planted with alot of fast growing stems. Every thing has been growing very well with the exceptions of the problems I listed. I also have a problem with my stargrass stunting and melting away? I guess I have more problems then I realize! lol I'll try uping the co2 if I can. Thanks
     
    #3 Jon Rupprecht, May 18, 2006
  4. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Most of us dose 1/16 tsp in a 29 gallon tank, 3 times a week. So, for a 75 gallon tank you probably should dose closer to 3/16 tsp than the 3/32 tsp you do dose. If you are low on phosphate the plants wont use the nitrates or CO2 that you are providing. Just an idea.
     
    #4 VaughnH, May 18, 2006
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    VH is correct, there are regulatory issues when you limit one nutrient, the rest are down regulated to cope.

    If you maintain a fat happy plant, they really grow, sometimes 10X as fast by dry weight biomass.

    I have some studies I'll be detailing later after I get through a couple more individual nutrient groups.

    I might not be able to wait, it really does explain a lot between how a tank can grow slower and leaner, and another grows faster, both have no algae etc as well.

    I think folks will eally like the way I put these ideas together.

    Start simple and then build the model from there, the model is quite robust actually.

    Lots of good research in the last 5-10 years on this.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #5 Tom Barr, May 18, 2006
  6. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    ok I guess I will up my dosing on everything then. I upped the co2 a bit today. On next waterchange I will start with 3/4 tsp kno3, 3/16 tsp po4 3x weekly. do you think I should stay at the 20 ml TMG or up that also? I'll give this a try for 2-3 weeks and see how it looks. Thanks for the help :)
     
    #6 Jon Rupprecht, May 18, 2006
  7. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Just thought I would update this thread. I took Tom's advice and dropped the lighting down to 3x54 T5's. I also switched the co2 to the mist method. I have no more stunted rotala at all, downoi are nice and green and growing like weeds!! Stargrass is growing huge and super fast with no melting at all. So all the plants are doing extremely well but still one problem :confused: I still am still getting some green algae on the leaves of the plants and now have some thread or hair algae in my blyxa and a couple other plants.
    I dose EI with the following regiment:
    Day 1 water change, 5/8 tsp kno3. 5/16 tsp po4
    Day 2 20 ml TMG
    repeat
    Should I lower my dosage since I lowered the lighting? What is the cause of the green algae on the leaves? Thats the one that bugs me the most!!
    My water is 100% ro/di reconstituted with gh booster from Greg Watson to 6dgh and with baking soda to 3 dkh. Out gassed ph is 7.4 brought down to 6.4 with co2 on 1 hour before lights and off approx 1 hour before lights. Any suggestions?
     
    #7 Jon Rupprecht, Jul 16, 2006
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Well, things are growing well now?
    Prune the algae off and let the new growth fill in.
    Be agressive and make sure you are left with enough plant biomass and also a clean fairly algae free tank.

    Also, do a 2x a week water change and fluff the algae and generally harass it manually, trimming etc for 2 weeks or so.

    That should remove most of the issue.
    Main thing is to get the plants growing well.
    It'll take a week or two for that to really get going.
    Amano shrimps are also pretty good as are SAE's when they are young.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #8 Tom Barr, Jul 17, 2006
  9. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    The plants are growing extremely well now. This type of thread or hair algae is a new one to me. I've had hair before and it was easy to remove with a toothbrush. This stuff is a lot finer texture then hair and kind of slimy when you do get some out.
    The green algae on the leaves is not spot algae, its kind of thick. You can scrape it off the leaves but it doesn't rub right off. I don't know if that makes any sense or not? lol Its mostly on my dwarf lobelia and ludwigia brevipes leaves. I do have a couple sae's in the tank but they are big and lazy :rolleyes: I going to the lfs now to find some more Amano shrimp, there's about 5 in there now so I will get another 10-20 if I can find them Thanks for the help :)
     
    #9 Jon Rupprecht, Jul 17, 2006
  10. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Do you have to clean algae off the glass every week? If so, it may be Green Dust Algae, and that may be what's on the leaves too. Just a thought.
     
    #10 VaughnH, Jul 17, 2006
  11. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Yes I do have some green dust algae on the glass, it has reduced quite a bit since I lowered the wattage but is still there. Will the stuff on the plants die off like on the glass? I am going to let the glass stuff go now and see if it will die off.
    The slimy hair algae has gotten much worse the last couple days. Is this stuff from lack of something or an excess of something?
     
    #11 Jon Rupprecht, Jul 17, 2006
  12. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    When I had so much GDA it was all over the plants too, and all of it, including that on the plants, went away together, but it took about 3 weeks.
     
    #12 VaughnH, Jul 17, 2006
  13. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    OK, I guess I just sit back and wait then! VaughnH, did you do waterchanges during the three weeks? Keep adding ferts the same as before?
     
    #13 Jon Rupprecht, Jul 17, 2006
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Yep, just act like it's not there and in 15-20 days attack it good and remove all you can.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #14 Tom Barr, Jul 17, 2006
  15. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    I didn't do water changes, just makeup water, because I didn't want to dislodge any of it from the glass. But, I did fertilize normally or slightly less. If you have snails, by the end of the 3 weeks they will be very much bigger! That stuff seems to be like a high protein diet, combined with steroids for snails.
     
    #15 VaughnH, Jul 17, 2006
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    I wonder if it would not make good Otto food and Sturisoma food etc?
    It's a good thing to be albe to grow specific species of algae well so you can evaluate herbivores and also grow or breed them.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #16 Tom Barr, Jul 18, 2006
  17. quenton

    quenton Guru Class Expert

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Snails on steroids -- I wonder -- could we remake the movie "The Blob"? (if anyone is old enough to remember it :gw ). Giant snails oozing out of the fish tanks and consuming an army of humans :D :D

    O well -- sorry -- back to the thread :)
     
    #17 quenton, Jul 18, 2006
  18. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Well I am a resource - perhaps a treasured national resource? I am able to grow just about any algae known to man, usually simultaneously. It is just a talent I seem to be blessed with.

    While doing the algae growing gig I find I also do pretty well with Kleiner Bar swords - I now have two who must have injested some of the steroid laced algae the snails ate. Leaves 5 inches wide, no less! Not exactly scaled for my 29 gallon tank.
     
    #18 VaughnH, Jul 18, 2006
  19. Jon Rupprecht

    Jon Rupprecht Junior Poster

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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    OK, the Gd is starting to die off on the glass and on the plant leaves :) BUT, this slimy hairy algae is getting worse :confused: The plants are all growing great but I can't get rid of this stuff. I manually remove as much as I can every day but I am loosing the battle. Any suggestions?
     
    #19 Jon Rupprecht, Jul 22, 2006
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Stunting rotala and white downoi??

    Can you reduce the lighting?

    Dosing normally?
    CO2 good?

    Attack it good, then do a water change.
    Then trim off any that's infecting the leaves.
    Since the plants are growing good, stick with that and trim as needed.
    You are close, but it does sound like a poor CO2 ppm range.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
    #20 Tom Barr, Jul 22, 2006
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