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Stauro and Mc melt

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by skija, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    This is interesting , i cut some plants on the top of java fern so it gets more light/flow it was too crowded and no flow , but now i cannot move it , it's attached to driftwood


    Thanks
     
  2. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    As I explained in a previous post on the last page those same P level gave me problems for several months before I finally realized it. But I also dose extremely low micros and Fe, so any binding effect would certainly be amplified in my case. It may or not be a problem for you.


    Im just wondering why you dont try the normal EI routine of 7.5 N, 1.3 P, 7.5 K
     
  3. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Well , if i dose less then 2ppm PO4 i'm getting GSA (not much GSA but still....), i tryed low traces/Fe but its a no no for me , i need more iron otherwise stauro's and MC are melting , also rotata is getting stunted growth if i dose low traces .
     
  4. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I'll try 10 ppm KNO3 and 1.7 PO4 and see the results , 3 times per week
     
  5. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    The kind of melting you are seeing is not due to excess of something. Excess can cause algae and according to micro-tox people stunt plants but melting of leafs at specific areas is not due to excess.


    however I do encourage you to experiment since EI is supposed to be estimated to each tank.
     
  6. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    It's not ok with less than 2.4 ppm of PO4 three times per week , i got GSA on glass and anubias + stauro after 1 week
     
  7. farhad.t

    farhad.t Junior Poster

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    ّI think GH booster needed .
     
  8. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , can you elaborate more please ? why should i add GH booster ?
     
  9. farhad.t

    farhad.t Junior Poster

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    I can not explain scientifically, but my problem was you with TDS 60ppm & i use Excel seachem with EI Method. It was less and were much better with GH booster


    In my experience Staurogyne repens very sensitive to Excel or Easy carbo & GH reduce
     
    #149 farhad.t, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2016
  10. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Latest photos with the tank


    ​​​​​​​

    22 - Copy.jpg

    33 - Copy.jpg
     
  11. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    looks great
     
  12. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hello , i have two questions if you can advise :


    - i have aqua soil in the tank , after one and a half year which nutrient do you think is consumed ? (tank was planted with rotala green , monte carlo and stauros)


    - at what distance from water surface should i keep the light (2x24w T5 ) on my 64 liter tank (60x30x36 cm) ? good CO2 and EI dosing ,


    Thanks
     
  13. ZeroFish

    ZeroFish Member

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    Hi, your tank looks really nice.


    I had a tank a year ago and I suffer almost the same problem as you, so I read through the entire thread to see if I can learn from your experience. FYI I do not have a planted tank right now.


    Can you please let you know what changes you have made in between [HASHTAG]#134[/HASHTAG] and [HASHTAG]#150[/HASHTAG].


    I read that you have problem with dosing CSM but not with profito, do you think changing to use profito or any other liquid mirco was the move that made the difference to your tank? Or do you think it is the over dose of micro that cause problem?


    Also in #80, you mentioned about using water conditioner (Easy Start), are you still using it for WC and does it do anything? I have never tried using those before.


    Back when I still had a tank, I tried everything but nothing worked. I tried to dose 3x/4x EI, increase CO2, reduce light, increase surface agitation, increase more CO2, use surface skimmer, remove fish for even more CO2, use CO2 reactor + CO2 mist etc. Then I stopped the hobby because I did not have the time.


    Thanks
     
    #153 ZeroFish, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2017
  14. edelry.junior

    edelry.junior Plant Enthusiast
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    1. There is a Barr Report on the ADA AS, check it and it will explain a lot more than what you asked. It is available to subscribers. This issue alone is worth more than the subscription price.
    2. The light distance is not that important. The plants are your parameter. At 2 meter above the water level your plants will suffer. At 10 cm it may be too much. Keep the plants growing healthy, thats the target.
    Let the light intensity drive the pace. Adjust the rest to match the lights.


    I have a very similar tank size, and started with 2x24w. Then I tried 4x24w. It was too much for me. Maybe a bit higher, maybe using 4 only for a couple hours, maybe stick with two? Try and see man, you will get it. Just try and see how it goes. Adjust the light to your plants and your pace :)


    I read the whole thread and I saw how tough it was with the melting issues. That's tough. Speciallly when it is hard to pinpoint the issues.


    Try a distance, keep with the WC, clean filters and watch out for the biomass size: as it gets bigger, you have less circulation, less light penetration, more CO2 consumption, more overall plant competition.
     
    2 people like this.
  15. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I did a few experiments in the last weeks because i will dismantle this tank and build another


    I'we done 2 major things which i think changed the plant grow considerably :


    - i'we added a water pump for a better water movement so the water moves round and round in the tank , i know this tank is small but the difference is big , all plants are doing much better also pearling is more intensive . I guess this is distributing the CO2 much better in the tank


    - i'm dosing profito 0.2 ppm each other day + iron each day , 0.2 ppm maybe 0.3 sometimes . Only dosing Kno3 (10 ppm each other day) + Kh2po4 (1.5 ppm each other day) but i raised the light from 15 cm to 23 cm above the water surface so no more GSA on glass . Before i had to dose 2.5 ppm PO4 to get rid of GSA


    After this everything changed a lot , no more melting . About CSM , i don't know what to say , maybe one day will try it again but only if i see the CO2 and flow is ok . But i dont believe in the toxicity stuff , that is not available if the plants are growing fine . But if the plants are not growing and you keep adding high level of ferts ...well i don't think its ok


    Easy Start didn't make any difference , i made some tests , can help grow of bacteria when you do very large water changes like 80-90% but will not change the rate of plant grow


    Easy Life profito and ferro are using DTPA iron while CSM uses EDTA . Here's a quote from Nuno Mates :


    "Fe-gluconate


    The less strong of used chelates, but as onlz one binds iron in ferrous form (Fe2+) which is faster and easier utilised by plants then ferric form Fe3+. You can find this form of iron in excelents Seachem Flourish Iron. Requests fo dealy dosing.


    Fe-EDTA


    Comonlly used form of iron. Used in fabulous Plantex CSM or JBL Ferropol


    Fe-DTPA


    Stable iron (up to pH 7,5) used in Tenso Cocktail or Easy-life Ferro


    Fe-EDDHMA


    The strongest iron. Stable up to pH 11. Lasts suplly plants for many days. even when you forget. "


    I dont know if its true or not ...but can help in some cases when you have hard water


    In this journal i made a lot of changes and i made a lots of statements but the main thing was the flow in the tank . When i added that pump i was shocked how things changed in 2-3 hours , pearling and growing of rotala .


    Anyway , as i said before the main think that changed my tank was the flow of CO2 through the tank
     
  16. ZeroFish

    ZeroFish Member

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    Thank you for your reply.


    I tried to use sparybar for filter output and use external pump for extra flow in different direction, but that did not really do any for me.


    I also tried to increase CO2 to a point that I cannot keep the fish along with high surface agitation. In that experiment, I emptied a 2kg fire extinguisher in just a month for a 35 liter tank.


    I tried to reduce my lighting by using a piece paper to block my light. No improvement from that, only the plant growth was slowed as expected.


    I do not want to believe the toxicity stuff too but that was the only thing I have never tried. I dosed 3x EI in the past to rule out the nutrient factor. What I noticed was that my plants only do well after WC, but the effect would only last for a day.


    After reading the post in #79 (http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/aquatic-plant-fertilization/219053-deficiency) and some comments from Pikez, it does make me want to try to run an EI tank with lean mirco.


    What iron are you using now? I wonder what would happen if you raise the dosage of profito and iron independently in your tank.


    I would like to hear from your new tank.


    Thanks.
     
  17. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I use profito and fero from Easy life , but if you say that "What I noticed was that my plants only do well after WC, but the effect would only last for a day" this probably its a CO2 issue


    I did what you did with CO2 , cranking it up too high , maybe 5-6 bps in a 60 liter tank , but had no effect , if the flow is not good makes no sense to increase CO2 .


    I run now 2 bps but with good flow


    Try play with the flow and the CO2 diffuser and get the right flow


    I did increased the iron to 0.5 ppm each other day but i didn't see any effect


    Maybe post a picture with the tank
     
  18. ZeroFish

    ZeroFish Member

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    It was probably a CO2+flow problem like you addressed, it does sounds like I was adding CO2 from WC and then CO2 degass after a day. I made that conclusion and tried to fix it too.


    I do not have a tank now, last time I had one was 1.5 years ago. I used to have a 1000l/h canister filter with a spray bar pointing at the font glass for my 35l tank (with the filter output adjusted to half), along with an external 300l/h pump on the side of the tank. That set up allows my plants to swing gently across the tank.


    For CO2, I tried in-tank diffuser, inline diffuser, reactor and Tom's reactor with CO2 mist.


    I tried to rule out the possibility that I added CO2 from WC, so I left a bucket of water to degas for 2-3 days before I use it for WC. Plants were still happy with the WC, again only for 1 day.


    I then wanted to rule out the flow factor, so I tried to play with the position of the external pump and the spray bar.


    I also tried to increase my canister output to maximum with everything else unchanged (light etc). However, hair algae started to grow with that change. If I am correct, some plants even started to melt with the high current (staurogyne repens and rotala I think). I stopped the experiment and then I came to a dead end for solution.


    Recently, I am reading some posts about mirco toxicity, seems like it became a topic when I was inactive in the hobby. From the posts I have read so far, people seems to have better plant growth when they try to reduce the mirco dosage. It seems like mirco has a very narrow optimal range on each tank, unlike marco where you can overdose without problem. I am not trying to conclude anything based on what I have read though. What I don't understand is why did their plants growth improve after going lean on mirco. Going lean on mirco was something I had never tried before.


    Since you made a claim about higher ppm of Fe caused no problem, I then asked myself what about other non-Fe mirco?


    Do you think it would have any effect if you dose 0.5 ppm of Fe using profito only (without using fero)? So that you are adding more non-Fe mirco through profito.


    Regarding to the changes you mentioned in [HASHTAG]#155[/HASHTAG], maybe raising the height of your light played a bigger role of plants health improvement? rather than then flow adjustment alone? It's just a guess


    I did not have the option to raise the height of my light, so I used white A4 paper to dim the lighting. Maybe the height of the light plays a bigger role than the amount of light? Again it's just a guess.


    I am now just assuming things and I probably should not be doing that without having a tank to test with. I am still learning, please correct me if I make a mistake.


    Thanks
     
    #158 ZeroFish, Jan 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2017
  19. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I never dosed 0.5 ppm Fe from EL profito , i dosed 0.5 ppm from EL Ferro (i know ferro contains only Fe and K). So cannot answer this question .


    I raised the light because i had BBA growing on my hardscape , on wood . And maybe this also helped the plants a bit .


    If you say you had hair algae than this is another sign of CO2 problem.


    In my case i still believe the flow was the main issue because even today if a change the flow back as it was , in 2-3 hours the plants stop pearling , plus the iron deficiency .
     
  20. ZeroFish

    ZeroFish Member

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    Thanks, I will focus more in CO2 related factors then.


    Can you think of what I was missing there?


    Since I had already tried to turn my CO2 stupidly high and use different level of flow in different direction, was there some factor I was overlooking?


    Perhaps light? I tried to use 1-2 layer of paper to dim my lighting, but all I observed was slower growth, the problem remained the same. One thing I had never tried is to raise the height.


    Something I forgot to mention is that I also used easycarbon along with my CO2 injection.


    I had also tried to increase my surface agitation and use surface skimmer, so that I can raise my CO2 and mix more O2 in the water.


    Without surface scum, my CO2 can reach max level and stay stable very quickly before the light turns on, and also allow CO2 to degas very fast when it's off. I think the stability of CO2 was not the problem here.


    In case you are wondering about my hardness; I live in UK, GH and KH here is 20+ and 15.


    I tried to use RO and RO mixed with tap water. Not much difference.


    My water seems to turn cloudy (slightly) after my daily 3x EI dose. It was clear to see the difference after a weekly water change.


    Does that suggest something? Since I dosed 3x EI, I guess it was not so surprising to have that result.


    Do you mind to upload a photo of your tank with all the equipment installed?


    I may learn a few things if I can look at your external pump and filter output position.


    Thanks
     
    #160 ZeroFish, Jan 21, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2017
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