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Stauro and Mc melt

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by skija, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    George farmer states that eco-complete contains a lot of beneficial nutrients already. I think its predominately iron based is it not? If this were true, maybe you are reaching toxicity. I see that as possible. How old is substrate.
     
  2. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Pikez


    I am purely guessing that .1 per day is WAY too high! At least it would be for me. Even 3x week, .1 from csmb will absolutely crush my Proserpinaca, L rubin, sunset, limno b, etc. Hell it would only take a couple doses, not the entire week.


    Again, I have no idea why.


    .05 3x seems to be the maximum favorable amount for me personally, along with dtpa and gluconate dosed at .03 - .05 ppm each,


    Not sure if you've read my tpt journal lately, but I made a mistake with the 50 and dosed half this amount for a couple weeks, .025 csmb and so on. Those same finicky stems looked even better than the 75. So then I cut the 75's dose down accordingly, couldnt tell much difference so it's getting the .05 3x routine again.


    strungout


    My substrate is inert sand, sparsely supplemented with Osmocote Plus.


    And before we blame the O+, I went over 1 year adding none at all, during which time nothing much changed, so I went back to adding just a wee bit here and there. I suppose it could be an additional source of sulfate though.
     
    #102 burr740, Apr 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2016
  3. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Oh wow. I need to go over to TPT and catch up. I thought I was low at 0.1 ppm per day. Interesting that your Proserpinaca suffers at 0.1 ppm. Surprised that Rubin complains. I think of them as not whiny.


    Your Limno Belem was a weed for me at 0.1 ppm, except very little purple color. So weedy I had to give it away. Bizarre, isn't it?


    Your excess sulfate theory is very easy to test and rule out. I might give that a shot. But my hopes are extremely low for a positive revelation.
     
  4. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Limno b is a weed for me too, only it looks like this as long as micros are kept around levels mentioned above. If I dose much more it goes green


    [​IMG]


    Sunset is pleased too


    [​IMG]


    The fact that you dose a lot more than me is what I was getting at before, possibly why you get different results with these two plants.


    Skip a couple pages back in my journal if you want to see pics of Mermaid weed destruction from just a couple doses of .125.


    Here's one, can see the rubin behind it.


    [​IMG]


    Still feel like this has to be a correlation rather than a direct cause. That is why the sulfur angle stood out to me. Because such low amounts are not supposed to be "toxic"


    Im going to reduce SO4 levels and see if anything changes.
     
    #104 burr740, Apr 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2016
  5. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    One more thing , anyone who is dosing K2SO4 or MgSO4 or CSM+B having amano shrimps in the tank ? (or other type of shrimps)


    I remember also i told you after i was doing lots of water changes that shrimps and snails became more active , and i saw small snails in the tank .


    Was reading some articles where people are saying that shrimps became more active and no deaths occurred anymore after stopped dosing CSM+B . They were replacing it with tropica or seachem flourish


    Somehow i believe this shrimp stuff is correlated with the plant toxicity .


    I was using Easy Life Profito in the previous tank and had no issues with inverts .


    EDIT: i'll stop also dosing MgSO4 , will dose profito or seachem flourish , i see they both are containing Mg and Ca , should be enough for my tank
     
    #105 skija, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2016
  6. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I'll try anything to get my Sunset to look like that! Damn!


    But you're only at 50% of my CSM+B dose, right? I cant imagine that alone making such a huge difference. I'd understand of the difference was an order of magnitude.


    I've also unintentionally kept my tank at high and low sulfate conditions. There was no change.


    By high-sulfate, I mean: Mg from MgSO4, Ca from CaSO4, and K from K2SO4. This gave me about 20 ppm Sulfur (not sulfate)


    By low-sulfate, I mean: Mg from MgNO3, Ca from CaCl2 and K from either KNO3 and/or K2SO4. This is what I'm currently using - for no specific reason other that these are the powders I have around. This gives me about 4 ppm Sulfur.


    My Sunset suffered the same fate under both routines. None of the other plants fared any differently. This is why I think the sulfate thing is hooey.
     
  7. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    If I understand correctly you dose .1 csmb daily? I do .05 3x week, along with an additional .03-.05 ppm of both gluconate and dtpa 11%. If I dose much more of either one things go south in a hurry. That mermaid stem was after 2 doses of .125. So it's not a case of dosing different for two weeks and then saying well this looks worse. The downturn is sudden and dramatic.


    I know how to keep things right, but still always look for ways to improve. It has never made sense how my tanks seem to be so sensitive to slight increases. Something got weird when I switched over to dry ferts two years ago. I would just like to find out if there is something causing the apparent sensitivity, or if that's just the way it is.


    Another thing that confounds me is that I used to dose more micros via Flourish comp than I can today. There was less K then, and no K2SO4, less N and P as well. Idk....just seems like there's a catalyst somewhere that Im not seeing.


    Sulfate theory sounds like hooey to me too, nevertheless gonna try a reduction and see what happens.


    Be interested to hear Tom's thoughts on it.
     
  8. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    My dosage averages to 0.1 per day. But what I add 0.3 ppm twice a week. Works out to half tsp twice a week. If I reset more frequently to get a handle on algae, then it could be slightly higher.


    My weekly: 0.6 ppm Fe from CSM+B


    Your weekly: 0.15 ppm Fe from CSM+B


    You're at 25% of my dose.


    I don't like to dose less because in about 2 weeks, both Ludwigia Red and Limno rugosa start looking like they did during the trace detox experiments. I can quickly turn it around by increasing traces.
     
  9. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    I only have cherries, they stay out all over the place and breed like crazy. But Im dosing fairly low levels to begin with. If your seeing a big difference in shrimp activity when you do a water change, it could also point to having sub-par flow, and/or O2 levels.


    Interested to see how this works for you, be sure to give an update.
     
  10. gsjmia

    gsjmia Lifetime Members
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    When I first got into the hobby, my tank would be great for 2 or so months and then completely crash with all kinds of algae. I could not find the cause and this went on for several years-drove me nuts. (FYI, turned out it was the Co2 controller I insisted on using that was counter-intuitively making the Co2 fluctuate).


    The hardest thing for me was to get some reliable information.


    TPT and other forums seemed to have tons of conflicting info and there was no one I could ask what was reliable.


    I remember reading MCI by Christian Rubliar and getting even more confused because: 1. it sounded very scientific (of which I knew nothing); and, 2. the info was all in one place and easy to assimilate and follow a seemingly comprehensive plan.


    Too bad there isn't a similar style comprehensive "how to" on this website (Tom, please finish your book-it would be invaluable).


    I recall Tom saying that the the point of this forum is so the newbie can get reliable information and I have found that to be the case.


    The MCI horse was forcibly taken to the woodshed several years ago and completely reduced to dog food and glue: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/members-only-exclusive-access/algae-control/7360-check-this-introduction-to-fertilizing-and-algae-control-by-christian-rubilar


    I think I will stick with EI because it works and it is what I know.
     
  11. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Shrimps are more active all week after i stopped dosing 0.5 ppm chelated traces so its not just when i changed water , also snails are are more active . I don't know if its about SO4 here , i gues its about traces
     
  12. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I cannot acces that link , but i'm here on the forums to talk with different people about different tanks , principles , ideas . I do agree all tanks are different , here is a picture with my first tank ,120 liters grown with co2 micros and Fe , never dosed macros (because i didnt had the idea what macros are) , and yes i had HC and stauro on bottom and were growing ok , only had almost 1w/liter light . But plants were growing slow . Pinnatifida was red but thats maybe because i had one giesemann aqua flora (pink) and 3xT5 daylight , 6500 k . I had GSA on glass and didn't know why at that time :)


    Im not here to combat EI , i don't have the guts to do it , i'm an engineer , this is my hobby , and i do believe Tom and the users here are nice and want to learn or experiment or whatever...


    About chelated traces , i read also on shrimp breeders topics that is toxic to shrimps in big quantities (just google it "csm+b shrimp" ) .


    I also admit that water is different in all around the world and who knows all the chemical reactions between tap water and csm+b and SO4 ? I don't and don't have time to do it .


    I'm still dosing macros according to EI and will do in the future , this is a theory that has been proven and lots of people are using it .


    I have concerns about this toxicity.


    Lets keep talking about what we have started .


    Thanks




    120.jpg
     
    #112 skija, Apr 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2016
    3 people like this.
  13. bcarl_26gal

    bcarl_26gal Junior Poster

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  14. gsjmia

    gsjmia Lifetime Members
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    skija, nice picture-really clean water-a clean tank is key in controlling algea.


    I tried the link and it worked, maybe try copy and paste (w/o quotes).


    "http://www.barrreport.com/forum/members-only-exclusive-access/algae-control/7360-check-this-introduction-to-fertilizing-and-algae-control-by-christian-rubilar"


    If you still can't find it, do a search for Christian Rubilar and look for the thread started by Dutchy on 4/1/10.


    If you think MCI has value, then by all means try it and report back on the results.
     
  15. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , maybe too much text but if you have time ... :)


    Well i don't know whats happening , but plants are not doing well again , only thing i changed was micros , i dropped chelated trace for Profito (0.2 ppm each other day)


    MC is getting glassy/transparent leaves again and not growing well also MC is getting yellowish and breaking apart in some areas .


    What i observed in the last 5-6 days is an incredible increase of BBA in all the tank , on MC ,anubias , microsorum . Only rotala is not getting it , maybe because its a very fast grower . Also got BBA increased on hard scape like wood and today i saw BBA on the lily pipe , i said WTF ? never had such amount of BBA since i got the tank , neither when i started my first tank .


    I also got some cyano in one corner (its not from low flow or low NO3 levels , i keep NO3 at 20 ppm)


    I changed a lot of things in this tank except macros and light .


    I tell you a little story .


    I got a friend at work who wanted a 70 liter tank for his kid , its 6 years old , so i made him an easy tank , microsorum , cryps , anubias etc....with 1 x T5 tube 24 w , good filtration Eheim experience 150 .Tank was ok , plants were growing slow but ok , no algae .


    I was telling him all about aquariums , plants , light , ferts ...etc . He lives near me so he is using same tap water for the tank . So he is doing all i say when comes to the tank .


    After 1 year he comes to me and says i want CO2 , i laugh , i said ok , so i made him a CO2 tank now with 2 x 24w - T5 giessenman tropic . He is using ferts from me , KNO3 , KH2PO4 and MgSO4. I made him a mix to dose 5 ppm NO3 and 1.5 ppm PO4 .


    He is amazed that GSA is gone :) .He got BBA but in very small amounts , no need to talk about BBA in his tank .


    So im telling him everything how to do . For micros he is using profito 3 ml each other day , thats around 0.1-0.2 ppm .


    I gave him 5 days ago 20 pcs of rotala green from my tank . And i was at his house today and i was amazed , rotala looks much better , leaves are bigger , no deficiencies also the stem (body) of the plant is thicker . so it looks perfect .


    I planted him today 1 pot of MC and i wonder how it will look after one week


    So my plan is to do a 3 days blackout and then start with 2 x24 Giessenman tropic . Will overdose 2-3 X easy carbo (european equivalent of excell ) after the blackout and will keep CO2 high .


    If this will not fix the problem than i don't know what to do next :)


    Feel free to comment


    Thanks
     
    #115 skija, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2016
  16. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , little update , things getting better , MC growing , stauro growing ok , not dropping leaves or other bad signs , rotala grows fast .


    What i'we done :


    - replaced aquasky with 2x24 W T5 giesemann at aprox 12 centimeters (aprox 5 inches) above the tank


    - upped the CO2


    - dosing micros 0.1 ppm each other day (pro-fito)


    - dropped K2SO4 , dosing NO3 -15 ppm each other day and KH2PO4 - 2.8 ppm each other day , 3 times per week


    Still getting some small cyanobacteria spots near glass 3rd day after changing water (50 -60%), why do you think i'm getting this cyanobacteria ? (its not low flow that spot where it grows) . I'm "nuking" it with H2O2 sometimes


    Do you think i'm dosing too much macros ? (NO3 and PO4)


    Here is my macro dosing





    Will post pictures a few days later , hope not to jinx it again :) )

    fert.jpg
     
    #116 skija, May 17, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2016
  17. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Here is a quick picture taken today , rotala and pinnatifida is growing like crazy , MC still need to spread




    3.jpg
     
  18. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Short picture update




    aaaaaaaa.jpg
     
  19. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    Just one suggestion, move the drop checker to the opposite side to the CO2 diffuser else it gives incorrect readings because the bubbles can get stuck at the rim.


    I have 2 different drop checkers are different areas of the tank and always find both responding differently because of how my water flows thru the tank.
     
  20. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I know about this thing regarding the drop checker , i will remove it anyway , i was playing with it around to read different values of CO2 , it was just cough in this picture in that position .


    If you check the picture above you will see that the drop checker is in another position .
     
    #120 skija, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
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