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Stauro and Mc melt

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by skija, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , i don't wanna jinx it :) but the last days i saw the tank changing a lot .


    I'we done 3 WC . First 50 % , after 2 days 20 % , after 2 more days 70 % , stopped adding micros and i was adding easy life easy start after each WC . Pinnatifida was growing in 4 days like in 2 weeks , rotala green is pearling like crazy , i see a few new leaves of stauros (not melting :) ) and i see new growth of MC . EI is the same , dosing same parameters , just PO4 less , going down from 3 ppm each other day to 2 ppm .


    I make pictures each day and can see plants growing , i had to trim rotala and pinnatifida today .


    I'll keep posting news , i hope i will not jinx it now :) ))


    Thanks again
     
  2. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    So after 4th water change , 50 % , i forgot to dose no3 and po4 and after 2 days leaves are turning brown , also the crazy growing has stop , could be lack of macros or something else ?


    I haven't dosed micros .
     
    #82 skija, Apr 1, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2016
  3. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    A little update , upped the co2 a bit , adding 15 ppm NO3 and 2 ppm PO4 each other day , the browning stuff has gone , but now after a few days i see this in rotala green and Monte Carlo , can you please help with this ?


    Was adding 0.2 ppm of chelated iron 2 days ago because i saw pale new growth on some plants.


    I suspect iron deficiency now , "yellow leaves that become brittle and glassy"


    Could be Iron ? haven't dosed micros since the water changes , 10 days ago


    Thanks

    image_5499.jpg

    image_5500.jpg
     
    #83 skija, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2016
  4. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    10 days of no traces can induce Fe deficiency in fast growing stem plants. I see one or two Rotala that are ready for some iron. Try 0.1 ppm Fe per day for a while and work up or down from there.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have to say, I've not seen this and I dose pretty high levels over the years, and have double dosed tanks without issues of any sort.


    ADA AS is a standard sediment type. It's clay loam, it will bind most trace metals. Trace metal binding, and release into the water, is a function of Redox.


    So if you have well established roots and good stable growth, this is a non issue. If something else stops growth suddenly, say CO2, diffuser needs cleaned, gas tank ran out for awhile, CO2 not set up correctly in some way, of which there are many, then.........all you really have is correlation.


    for this to be true, and be specific to the claimed causes, I would have to see it. Yet time and time again, I do not.


    Starougyne, I've grown mountains of it, perhaps more than any other hobbyists in the USA.


    Same for MC. Starou looses it's leaves when the CO2 ran out and I did not catch it for a few days. They continued even after restoring the CO2. New ADA As also seemed to do this if you did not do water changes 3-4x a week the 1st 2-3 weeks, but thereafter, things did well.


    Ferts and certainly traces had no effect. 2 Weeks of no traces only resulted in more algae.


    Did this on a couple of tanks, in the 3rd tank, no effect either way, but the light was lower.


    I do not buy this claim about (CMS) traces. I dose about .8 ppm a week as a proxy. I've 2-3x this amount in my 180 in the past.


    Fe, I've dosed .5 ppm a dose 3-4x a week in the past of just that alone. No ill effects noted.


    My KH's/GH's over the years have gone from 5.5/9, in Marin, 11/24 in Goleta, 13/17 in Davis, 3/5 in Florida and 1-2/2-3 here in Sacramento.


    Some plants do not like the higher KH's, Rotala's and a few others seemed to do poorly. GH's, most plants seem to enjoy more of that.


    Lower KH's might play some role in release, but I think this is more wishful thinking, not evidence that supports the cause.


    I would need to be able to replicate the effects on the plants and I have consistently failed to do that. I have little issue being very harsh on this claim, because what I have done is deductive.


    I've ruled it out. So I can be quite certain..........and I demonstrate it over and over.


    Maybe it's this or that, who knows? Without trying to use deduction, you will not get far.... and I've seen very little of that regarding traces.


    If Sherlock Holmes did not use deduction........he'd never find out who dunnit.


    I do not need belief. Nor do I expect it.
     
  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Plant growth is less impacted/limited by traces because....they are traces, so 1-2 weeks out would be expected, whereas CO2 would be seen in a day or two, less if you used O2 as a measure of growth. PO4, maybe a week etc. You can pulse PO4 and see responses in about 30-45 minutes if you run it lean and dose say .2-.4ppm after none for say 4-6 days.


    All these water changes and resets helps plants and this has little to do with "trace detox".


    I have dosed a great deal and not found any impact. Erios, Tonina, Ludwigia, Rotala, Buce, Anubias all sorts of genera.


    I also have the tanks in the garage and they get nothing really, some food for fish(no macros or micros). ADA AS that's ~ 5-6 months old now.


    Tanks do well also. Rich CO2/lower light. Plants grow slower. Paler etc.


    In other words, both systems look good, there's some differences, but it's not due to traces.


    More the light. Sediment vs water column mostly for N/P but both work well and robust over long time frames.


    Same for non CO2, just slower growth and fewer mixes of species/densities.
     
  7. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Well thanks for the infos Tom , my conclusion after Tom's comment is to fix light and CO2 . I lowered aquasky light like shown in the picture , i ordered a better CO2 diffuser and upped the CO2 a bit , will up a bit CO2 each day and see how it goes . I started adding chelated iron 0.3 ppm and will increase in the next 2 weeks and see the changes . Macros will add 10-15 ppm no3 and 1.5 ppm po4 each other day , 3 times per week . Iron in the days between macros.


    In the pictures attached you can see aquasky with one black tape in the middle and then with black tape crossed :) ) . I'we done this to reduce the light . In pictures "a" and "b" you will se the difference , pictures were taken with same exposure and f-stop . Picture "a" is with aquasky with straight black tape and picture "b" is with aquasky with crossed black tape . Can see that in picture "b" i have less light . Meanwhile i ordered 2 giesemann tropic 24 w and will try this as well but will try just after few weeks if things will not change with aquasky .


    Thanks again , any comments are welcome







    2.jpg

    3.JPG

    b.JPG

    a.JPG
     
  8. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , short update , i'm still dosing 15 ppm KNO3 , 1.7 ppm KH2PO4 , 2.5 ppm K2SO4 and 1 ppm Mg , all this quantities each other day . Upped the CO2 day by day , but i reached the maximum , fish were gasping for air so i turned down a bit .


    Monte Carlo started to grow , but i see some new growth leaves which are small


    After the rotala picture i posted in post #83 i started to dose chelated iron 0.5 ppm each other day . Rotala seems to recover after a week , those bad signs are gone, but pinholes appeared in pinnatifida and today i spotted 2 transparent leves on Monte Carlo . Also anubias new leaves are yellowish , also on the pictures you can observe that Monte Carlo leaves are also yellowish .


    I haven't dosed micros , just chelated iron . Now this is micro nutrients toxicity or ? Can't go higher with CO2 . I'm measuring around 0.2-0.3 ppm Fe and 10-15 ppm NO3


    Aquasky is like in post #77 with one black tape covered .


    Please comment , what do you suggest ?


    Thanks




    Anubias yellow.JPG

    MC transparent.JPG

    MC trasnp.JPG

    pinna.jpg

    Rotala OK.JPG
     
    #88 skija, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2016
  9. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Fix your traces.


    You went 10 days without any traces. Now you're really high on Fe. Find a happy medium. A tank like yours will thrive with 0.1 ppm Fe per day.


    And why no non-Fe traces?
     
  10. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , sorry but i don't understand what you mean by "no non-Fe traces" , can you explain please ?


    Thanks
     
  11. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    You said you hadn't dosed any micros, but only the chelated iron. I was wondering why you left out all the other traces. I suspect sooner or later, your tank will become deficient in one of those other trace elements.


    Instead of dosing just iron, I would dose CSM+B at 0.1 ppm iron per day. This should cover your iron + trace elements needs, but if you still notice some pale young leaves, you may want to dose Iron DTPA (0.1 or 0.2 ppm) once a week after a water change.
     
  12. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , noted , will add traces to 0.1 level Fe , i lowered the light more but got brown algae / diatoms after 2 days , so i will rule out light from this problem . Measured NH4 , i thought brown algae was from a NH4 spike , but its under 0.1 ppm .


    I'm on water changes again 2 per week and adding macros back right after WC .


    Was thinking to change traces to buy easy life profito or Tropica Plant Grow Premium instead of using Chelated Traces
     
  13. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , regarding the toxicity stuff we were talking about . I do believe Tom when he is saying that adding 0.5 ppm traces causes NO toxicity but somehow i believe Solcielo Lawrencia about the toxicity stuff as well .


    And all this after i was reading MCI by Christian Rubilar . If he is right (i don't know yet because i haven't tested yet) he is saying that adding K2SO4 can cause some (bad) reactions with high levels of iron and PO4 . And yes i was dosing K2SO4 , but i stopped today and will see how things are going in the next weeks .


    I'm curious if all the users who had this micro nutrient toxicity problem were dosing K2SO4 .


    Please correct me if i'm wrong or i misunderstood anything .


    Yes Pikez you are right , pinholes in pinnatifida are not K deficiencies .


    Thanks
     
  14. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    0.5 ppm Fe per day from CSM+B is a LOT. You may not have toxicity issues at that level, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if you did. I had issues at that level. Consistently.


    I use K2SO4. One tablespoon into my 180 gal after each water change. Have been doing this for a long time. I cannot imagine a scenario where this could cause problems. But I'm willing to listen to the arguments.


    Do you have a link to 'MCI by Christian Rubliar'?
     
  15. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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  16. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    That could certainly explain a few things in my case. Two years ago my 75 gal had diy co2, about 70 par at the sub, and flourish liquid ferts dosed about 1/2 -2/3 EI levels.


    Back then I dosed way more micros/Fe via Flourish Comp that I can today, which now has twice the plant mass, 120 par and crazy CO2. The moment I switched to dry ferts things went south. It's not a Comp vs csmb issue either. I can repeat the same toxicity symptoms with either one.


    My tap contains about 8 ppm sulfate (SO4). When PM tested my tank water SO4 was over 90. Ive always dosed fairly heavy K2SO4 so I suppose it could tie in somehow.


    Just to be clear I can do pretty well with most plants, not much algae issues, etc. Ive just never understood why more than about .05 csmb will bring on the apocalypse now.


    Think I will stop K2SO4 and see what happens. May need to find some K2O
     
    #96 burr740, Apr 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2016
  17. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I find the rants and unsubstantiated claims almost comical.


    Perfect example: "I don’t recommend the use of potassium sulfate (KHSO4). There are some reasons. The first one is that if you add this macro, the NO3 will be uptaken and as soon as you reach zero you will have algae issues."


    Holy crap! Adding K will make you N limited? I'm not sure where to begin, so I'll drop it.


    Another one I'm reeling from: "it is better to do not add sulfur when we can avoid it. Bacteria oxidation may produce sulfuric acid.
     
  18. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    If you add Pot Nitrate and Pot phosphate for N and P, then you won't notice the absence of Pot sulfate.


    At one point (recently), I was adding 10 tsp of CaSO4, 6 tsp of MgSO4, and 3 tsp of K2SO4 after each water change. That's an awful lot of sulfate. No issues. But now I'm starting to sound like Tom. :)


    Still, I'm not rejecting the possibility that excess sulfate could cause several other imbalances.


    Sulfate is easy to avoid if you really want to:


    1. Instead of CaSO4, try Calcium Chloride or Cal Nitrate. I do. Calcium chloride is my preferred Calcium source, not CaSO4. It does NOT burn plants like this Rubilar guys says.


    2. Use KNO3 and KH2PO4 for N, P, and K. If you do this, you will need an alternate source of Mg without sulfur, not K.


    3. Use MgNO3 and/or CaNO3 for boosting GH. You'll end up with very high nitrate levels, but you can certainly avoid sulfate if you must.


    When I read that APC link, this is the first thing that came to mind.


    Full_Size_Render_1.jpg


    On most days, I am still on the little mountain. LOL! Many people go quiet a couple of steps after Mt Stupid. I did for about a decade when I went back to keeping just fish.
     
  19. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    I can think of a couple plants you have issues with. If I dosed your trace levels, which are not much compared to many, my sunset would go the way yours did, and my limno b. be would be all green if not dead.


    Why? I dont know. Point is, maybe you do have issues and just not aware of them?


    /Solceilo :)


    Im not even trying to solve a problem, because I dont really have one. I simply fail to understand why my plants do what they do with the smallest increase in micro dosing. Something happened when I switched to dry ferts two years ago. Back then I could be convinced it might be CO2 related. Sudden unlimited nutrients = new co2 deficiency, for example....but not now.


    I feel like there has to be something Im missing because it just shouldnt be that way. Sulfur fits the timeline and something Ive never thought about or tried. Regardless if that guy is a quack or not. Im going to cut it way down and see if anything changes. Ive tried more outlandish theories. ;-)
     
    #99 burr740, Apr 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2016
  20. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    LOL! You're right. I sound like Tom and you like Solcielo. All very familiar.


    OK, I will admit to having issues with Rotala Sunset and the wretched Lythraceae lot. But is that due to excess sulfate? My guess is no. A while back, I ended up using MgNO3 and CaCl2 for my GH chems. So I was adding very little sulfate. My luck with Sunset remained the same. I could do a couple of water changes and then go cold turkey on sulfates and see if it makes a difference.


    Are you guessing or suggesting that my 0.1 ppm Fe per day as CSM+B is too low and that's why the Sunset did not grow? In my tank that's half tsp twice a week. That's not insignificant.
     
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