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Stauro and Mc melt

Discussion in 'Are you new to aquatic plants? Start here' started by skija, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , this tank is 6 months old , it is cycled 100 % , i measured ammonia today just because i was curious , i had a test at home , its less then 0.05 ppm . Fish are more than ok i can say , they feed well , not a single one died or had any symptoms because of ammonia .


    About the melting , plants are melting since i started the aquarium . And it goes like this , i prune the plants , they start to grow and then after 2 weeks MC and stauro starts to melt (glassy leaves) .Maybe plants start to grow and need more CO2 and i need to push up the CO2 ?


    This is the only thing which is driving me crazy and i don't know why . Also got some BBA on wood and on some equipment and one spot of 1 cm x 1 cm of cyanobacteria in the corner near the intake of the filter .


    I got a question , maybe you guys have the right answer for me : lets say i have a CO2 problem and i cannot improve CO2 or the flow , would it help if i will reduce lightning like in post #43 , adding a black tape to the Aquasky 601 ?


    Thanks
     
  2. Julia Adkins

    Julia Adkins aquariumfertilizer.com
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    Your plants may need more calcium, potassium and/or magnesium. These are all important nutrients for growth and development of plants. Calcium is needed for cell wall strength and thickness of stems. Potassium is required in large amounts for proper growth and reproduction. Magnesium helps improve blooming; enhances the green color and helps plants grow bushier. Nitrates are not all that is needed.
     
    2 people like this.
  3. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Thanks for info Julia , but before dosing Mg i had the same problem , now i dose 10 ppm and the problem is the same , i never dozed calcium , Potassium i should have around 11 ppm according to my dosage ,


    2 pictures with Staurogyne melting , taken today , they started to grow ok , and after 2-3 weeks of grow they gone in bad condition . The leaves were getting glassy , melting and fall of in 2 days


    I did a water change on Sunday and dosed macros , KNO3 - 20 ppm , KH2PO4- 2 ppm K2SO4 -3 ppm and MgSO4 - 10 ppm


    Monte Carlo is looking the same as the staurogyne just its harder to take pictures because the leafs are smaller , can see in MC picture attached , this is and old picture with MC , about 4 months ago


    I suggest to download pictures and zoom in for a better view


    I insist on one question if anyone can help : lets say i have the CO2 problem and i cannot improve CO2 or the flow , would it help if i will reduce lightning like in post #43 , adding a black tape to the Aquasky 601 ?


    Thanks again in advance for the help

    MC.jpg

    2.jpg

    3.jpg
     
  4. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    reduced lighting will always reduce the stress caused by any type of deficiency whether it is CO2 or nutrients. If you are dosing EI, then in general you can rule out nutrients.


    I've had this same melt before when I first grew S. repens. For me, the cure was better flow and CO2. Is your drop checker blue when the lights turn on? or green?
     
  5. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    I see the same problems on my tank every time I trim the Stauro's or move them around. My MC's also melt after trims that's why I am slowly replacing them with HC, which are same family but I had never see HC melt that way.


    I also have heard it can be micro toxicity which I am not completely sold on yet.


    If they are well rooted and nutrient levels are good, they bounce back in a few weeks. If you see new growth don't worry about the old melted leafs. Not sure what triggers the melt. If I loose all the leafs I take the entire plant out and replace it with new shoots from other Stauro's.


    One time I had seen a bunch of my Stauto's melt when I dumped my EI dose in water and it all landed on top of the Stauro. Since then I always dissolve it in some water.


    I am also getting rid of my Stauro's since it seems to be a GSA magnet in my tank. I am replacing it with Pogostemon Helferi which I am starting to like a lot better.
     
  6. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    ShadowMac - yes drop checker is green when light goes on , i will try reducing the light by adding a black tape on aquasky like i mentioned in post #43 . I don't have any other solution since i cannot raise this LED up


    Rajkm - yes stauro its a GSA magnet aswell :)


    Thanks again
     
  7. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Lifetime Members
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    I recently learned of a photo gel used by photographers that reduces light intensity. It is semi transparent and able to withstand heat as it is used over photography lights. Might be worth checking out. It is relatively cheap.
     
  8. Jason King

    Jason King barrreport.com
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  9. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Haven't been following this thread, but from quick scan and the YouTube vid, there does not seem to be a serious flow or CO2 problem. There isn't much plant density to compete for CO2. There isn't much to obstruct flow. What you have is probably fine. I don't see deficiency issues.


    For now, reduce light significantly. AquaSky type lights are crazy bright. Use glass lid and/or red root floaters or Pistia to reduce light.


    Increase water changes quantity and frequency to 50% every 2 or 3 days.


    I'm glad you have Hygro pinnatifida in the tank - the fortunes of Stauro repens rises and falls with the fortunes of Hyrgo pinnatifida and Hygro Kompakt. Are you noticing any issues with the pinnatifida? May be consider adding gyro Kompakt to confirm Stauro issues.


    Both Stauro and MC are easy plants. Something specific is bothering them. Is there something in your water, perhaps that is unusual?
     
  10. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    I reduced the lightning with a black tape like shown in post #43


    I got pinnatifida on wood on 4 places , One of them which is on bottom of the tank has this wholes in it like in the picture . Is this K defficiency ? or something else ?


    Should i stop dosing EI or continue ?


    Thanks again


    Edit :I can replace Aquasky with an Odyssea T5 Lamp 2 x 24 W that has 2 giesemann midday T5 tubes or can combine 1 giesemann midday with 1 giesemann aquaflora

    Untitled.jpg
     
    #70 skija, Mar 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2016
  11. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    The holes on the older pinnatifida leaves are exactly what I expected. That's why I asked. This is NOT true potassium deficiency but possibly an induced potassium deficiency. That's just a guess. You can add twice or three or ten times as much potassium and the holes will not go away. Fortunately, new leaves look OK and you can either live with the older leaves or sweep it under the rug by trimming those leaves. Neither will solve the problem causing it. So WHAT IS the problem? I don't know for sure.


    If Hygros are unhappy, Stauro will be unhappy. Hygros are hardier, but they generally share symptoms. To borrow a term from Wall Street, Stauros are 'leading indicators.' Indicators of what, I am uncertain. I can spot a grumpy person in a room, but I can't tell you why they're grumpy.


    I would definitely NOT stop dosing EI. The EI system has been unfairly maligned by people who do not know how to tweak it to their tank's needs. May be you need more Ca or Mg. May be you need a lot more water changes. May be you need less traces. May be you need more P. You will have to let your plants do the talking.


    But I can tell you this: my Hygros had the same symptom. My Stauros always grew vigorously, but leaves were small and older leaves had yellow holes in them. I may have pics from a while ago that I'll try to dig up and post in my journal. Both plants did fine - still grew enough to trim a lot every month. But leaves were small and older leaves had yellow pinholes. But when I reduced CSM+B to 0.3 ppm as Fe per week, leaf size on the Stauro tripled. I got the Stauro from Tom over 2 years ago. Leaf size had been the same for that long - about 0.5". Now I have many that are 1.25" which seems absolutely giant to me. At the same time, my Hygros stopped developing yellow pinholes.


    Frankly, I think 0.3 ppm Fe every week is a little low. I still dose very high macros (per EI) and very high CO2, with high light and about KH 2.


    That's what works in my tank. You'll have to figure out what works in yours. Some people have perfect luck with what the calculators suggest. Others have to tweak.


    No need to change light - black tape and floating plants are fine.
     
  12. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , thanks for the infos again , i reduced light as i said , added a black tape to one of the 3 LED stripes from Aquasky


    I pruned all the stauros . I replanted 2 pots of Monte Carlo yesterday , i got a question for those who had successfully grew this plant , if CO2 is ok in the tank and all parameters , when should this plant start to pearl after the light goes on ? after one hour ? after 3 hours ? ....etc etc .


    I'm asking this because i want to check that everything is ok so i wan't fail again on MC :)


    Thanks
     
  13. vision

    vision Junior Poster

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    thanks for all the information, was suffering from something very similar.
     
  14. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi again , i reduced the filter outflow today by almost 50 % and guess what , after 15 minutes i got pearling , huh ...


    Could be that i had too much flow and CO2 was "getting away" too fast from the tank ?


    Also the CO2 bubbles are much smaller, this because the filter outflow are not "hitting" so hard the CO2 diffuser because i reduced flow .


    Can someone explain this ? I'm a bit confused :rolleyes:


    Thanks
     
  15. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Was looking today at some pictures when i started this tank , and i found pictures with MC growing very well in the first two weeks .But after 2 or 3 weeks the melting begun. In second picture i added stauros from another tank and they were in good shape till the melting started , and then MC started also to melt . I removed pinnatifida from the background and added rotala green after a 2 months .Can see on the drop checker that CO2 was lower then now , i was adding 2 bps that time and drop checker was green and now i add double amount of CO2 , 4 bps , drop checker is yellow


    At the time the pictures were taken i had fresh ADA AS , tank was cycled without fish for about 3 weeks , and i was dosing really low no3 and po4 at that time .


    This is what is driving me crazy , why after 2 week of really good grow Mc and stauro started to melt ? and cannot find the reason not even now after 6 months .


    Pictures were taken with different exposure , the lights were the same aquasky 601 , just to don't confuse anyone .


    Thanks










    week 1.jpg

    week 2.jpg

    week 2.jpg
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'd just stick with water changes 2x a week, 50-70% and add ferts back after that(right after water change). Keep the CO2 good, and watch new growth. Add shrimp and maybe a small pleco/3-4 otto cats. the HC should grow in pretty fast, like 3-4 weeks tops. If not, then CO2. You can rule out ferts easily. Light, well, the ADA Aquasky is pretty bright, meant more for a wall of stem plants arching over the back to the middle. Metal window screening can help reduce the intensity also
     
  17. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Hi , ill keep CO2 at high values as you and others sugested .


    I got 5 ottos and 8 or 10 amano shrimps in the tank since i started the tank (about 6 months ago) . Sorry to ask but why do you suggest to add ottos and amamos in the tank now ? i started the tank 6 months ago , how can they help with my monte carlo and stauro melt ? I know ottos and amanos help against algae .


    I was always adding ferts after WC (once a week). I'll do twice water changes also and add ferts rigth after as you suggest.


    About the light , i added a black tape to the aquasky 601 so one of the three LED rows is covered (like in the picture attached) . I also have the possibility to change the aquasky 601 with a T5 lamp that has 2 x 24 w Giesemann midday 6500 k. What do you suggest , keep aquasky with the black tape cover or ad d 2 x 24 Giesemann midday 6500 k ?


    Thanks again


    PS: i have the feeling that some of the readers are thinking that this tank is new , but i repeat it has 6 months old (sorry for keep repeating this) and only monte carlo and stauros are melting.







    601.jpg

    601_2.jpg
     
    #77 skija, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2016
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    2x 24W T5's sounds good.


    MC is very tough, never had that melt, and Starou only under rare circumstances. Never figured out why. It all came back after about 3-4 weeks.
     
  19. bcarl_26gal

    bcarl_26gal Junior Poster

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    Skija,


    Check out a few of my threads. We have very similar water parameters, KH and GH plays a large role in toxicities. I was way overdosing micros for a long time. I had a dense carpet that magically started melting for 6 months straight. The only time it got slightly better was when I did multiple 50% water changes during the week. Once you overdose micros your substrate also becomes toxic. 2 weeks without traces with a high CEC substrate is not enough, it's still toxic. I changed substrates, and dose EI for macros and PPS pro levels for micros and have no issues with this plant any more. I firmly believe you have a toxicity, I urge you to look at all of my threads most of the same posters here who said too much light or flow or more co2. All wrong.


    http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/aquatic-plant-fertilization/219053-deficiency


    http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/bcarls-26-gallon-bf-build-309788.html


    And here is my current build


    http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/bcarls-5-gal-hex-rimless-build-343332.html


    Best of luck
     
  20. skija

    skija Lifetime Members
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    Wow , thanks a lot , was reading the post , i have a lot of these symptoms , Stauro leaves looks the same , snails are not reproducing (i saw Solcielo lawrencia comments about inverts ) and i see dead very small snails (i have only 3 or 4 snails in the tank and their numbers didn't change ), ottos are hiding indeed and amanos as well . My co2 is high enough , drop checker is yellow .


    So i'm planning to do a lots of WC and dose only macros .


    If this is micro toxicity what micros do you suggest to use ? Seachem Flourish ? Easy Life Pro Fito ? these two i can buy here .


    Or can dose chelated iron http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/f...-13-2-50g.html


    I was using chelated traces for micros http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/f...trace-180.html


    Thanks again


    EDIT: i remember now that when i started this tank i was using Easy Life Easy Start for 2 months at each water change , and if its right what is written on product page : " It also helps to reduce the effects of harmful bacteria and rids the water of heavy metals and other chemical contamination"


    maybe this was the reason why my plants were ok at the beginning , or i'm just paranoia ? :)
     
    #80 skija, Mar 24, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2016
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