Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to why my plants would be so brittle and slow to grow.... I have been working on getting my tank in shape, and have gotten a lot of help over at the AGA forums and things have improved since I started. I havnt changed anything for about 2-3 weeks now and this is how things have been running...
75 g. 194 watts of lighting
50% weekly WC, 1 t. epsom salts added after.
GH is 5.5 (water company told me that it Ca is 26 ppm, and Mg at 6 ppm)
Ferts:
1/2 t. KNO3 3x/week
1/8 t. KH2PO4 3x/week
15 ml. flourish traces 3x/week
15 ml flourish Iron 3x/week
CO2 between 30-40 ppm... seems to raise all through the day peaking around 40 ppm or so....
I just stopped adding the extra iron because I dont really feel I need it, I originally started adding it because on some plants leaves are coming in pale, a cream color, to light yellowish. but after adding iron for a few weeks there was no change at all in that so i figured it wasnt iron related. and other than new leaves coming in like that on Anubias, Echinodorus, and Marsilea.
All of my stem plants are affected by pretty much the same syptoms which is mainly very slow growth (i know this tank isnt very high light, however I have seen much quicker growth out of it in the past) and extremely brittle stems and leaves, so brittle that if they are bent past 90 degrees or so they will simply break. Then on some of the stem plants but not all, they show deformed new growth... leaves coming in that dont even look like leaves on A. reineckii, and other plants that simply have cupped leaves, or folded leaf edges.
Any ideas of what could be causing this? possibly to much of a nutrient? or not enough of something else? At first I though it was Ca, but after reading Toms article... and with a GH of 5 that just doesnt seem possible, then I thought maybe Mg could be causing it for some reason.... but I have been adding a pretty large amound of epsom salts at WC... maybe to much Mg? or not enough traces? i have read boron is similar to Ca def.
I really dont have a clue.... but something seems off.... i dont remember my plants being so easily broken before.... and the growth just seems so slow..... its taken about 2 weeks for H. polysperma to reach the top of my tank..... and in about 3 or 4 weeks time R. rotundifolia has grown only about 4" if that after I pruned it about a month or more ago...... Maybe im expecting to see to much out of this tank..... i just remember it growing better when i read the PMDD paper and mixed everything into a solution and dosed a few ml of that each day..... i cant figure out what I did to make things slow down so much.
thanks for any help
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

wow, pretty intresting stuff, didnt think anyone was going to reply to this one Im really glad your guys did.
defdac, that picture of A. reineckii is EXACTLY how mine has been growing in.... well lack there of really, LoL my plants really havnt grown much in the past few months..... ever since I swiched up to EI doseing.... and I really dont think it has a THING at all to do with the EI method.... but rather could be somthing to do with Mg as you both have stated and found out to be true in your tanks. Because I can also point back to when I started EI i was concerned about there being a lack of Mg in my water.... so i have been dumping the stuff in at water changes thinking it was needed..... even though Tom recomended only adding 1/4 tsp. i figured it needed to be up around 10 ppm as sometimes recomended here and there on the net. So the whole time I have had this problem I have also had high Mg, I would say above 10 ppm.....
And I noticed before this much faster growth from my plants when i was doseing everything all mixed up in a liquid solution... only there was deficiences i believe in PO4 and NO3 then because i was doseing very little NO3 and no PO4.... even so growth was better than lately.... several inches a week from my stem plants..... and the tops always looked good.... it was just the bottomes dieing off.
when i was doseing this mixed up solution it did indeed have Mg in it..... but through the entire week the tank was only getting a total of .35 ppm added to it, along with about 25% weekly water changes.... only a mere PINCH at water changed compared to theTEASPOON that has been added...... sometimes even 2 t. thinking i needed more for some stupid reason.
Thank you VERY much for the input that is definantly something for me to look into..... actually really the only explaination I can come up as to why things would have slowed down since swiching ways I add ferts. Im going to do a nice big water change and leave my water alone as was recomended.... I will post in a week or two and let all know if there has been any positive change from this. thanks again happy holidays all!
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

In my tank for the past few weeks CO2 has been really consistant.... but that hasnt been the case in the past few months. I was first getting it up and it was changing day to day as I was raising it..... then my tank was empty and needed refilled, and up intil about 2 weeks ago I was still fiddling with levels to get them there. Now any higher and my fish are gasping at the top of the tank. An hour or so after CO2 comes on i hit ph of 6.5 and by the end of the day I am consistant in the 6.2-6.3 range with a KH of 3.... leads me to believe what the chart says and what the fish say are pretty close with where CO2 levels are....
as far as Mg my water is fairly soft out of the tap.... Kh 2.5 and GH of 5.5 seems like adding to much Mg could cause problems with my water and thats what I have been doing so im going to be cutting back on that to see if it helps. hope I see a difference. thought maybe it is something else all togeather..... maybe I dont have enough CO2 or NPK.... I dunno those seem covered though.
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

welp I could really use some help, I havnt changed anything in my tank for almost a month now so everything has been stable, but sadly there hasnt been much of any improvement at all. I would say about 3 and a half weeks ago I stopped adding things to adjust the GH all togeather, but for some reason over the week the GH in my tank is raising a few degrees? pretty much most of the deformed growth did stop, I still get some folded leaf edges on H. polysperma here and there but other than that everything looks pretty normal.
Though the plants still dont look very healthy, new leaves of Anubias, Echinodorus, and Marsilea still come in light, sort of pale yellowish tinge to them. I can say that they do look a bit better but not more... they are coming in a bit more yellow than the pale cream color they were coming in before. The entire leave of marsilea and Anubias come in like that, but on the one Echinodorus I have in there the leaves are the red color they should be with just the veins coming in pale like that.
Myriophyllum sp. and pretty much the rest of the stem plants, but it is best seen on myrio. have growth tips that do look slightly better than before nice and green, but then as the plant grows a bit more all the old growth fades out to a dull green, almost yellow at the bottom, and at times the lower old leaves fall off. I mean just over all health doesnt look to good at all, and as usual there is hardly any growth, everything is just sort of sitting....
does ANYONE have ANY ideas of what could be going on, or what needs to be done to get healthy plant growth? I have no clue what to do nor why things arnt flourishing.... and to tell you the truth i am getting really frustrated, to the point of about being ready to give up, I have been tinkering with this for almost a year... and havnt seen any major improvements.... to be honest I think the tank looked better when I first started with DIY CO2, and doseing via "PMDD"....
If anyone needs water param's or something let me know i would be happy to list whatever that isnt already listed from previous post.... right now im not even in the mood to really think about it
any help would be very very very much appriciated.... thanks everyone
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

Well I had taken a glass of water from the tap yesterday to rest 24 hours to test to see what im starting with. So i decided to go ahead and do that and test tank water also since I usually change my water tonight, or tomorrow depending on the week.....
Tap-
PH- 7.6
GH- 6.5 degrees
KH- 2.5 degrees
Ca- 35 ppm
Mg- 7 ppm
Ca:Mg ratio - about 5:1

Tank-
PH- 6.1
GH- 9.5 degrees
KH- 6 degrees
Ca- 45 ppm
Mg- 14 ppm
Ca:Mg ratio - about 3.2:1

Now for how I have been doseing the tank, which like I had said before nothing has changed in the past month or so, everything has been held consistant.
75 gallon tank... probably close to about 60 gallons actual water?
194 watts of lighting (just upgraded yesterday to 260 watts... though as it was just yesterday it would have no effect on the things happening over the past 4 weeks)

KNO3 - 3/4 tsp. 3x/week
KH2PO4 - 3/16 tsp. 3x...
K2SO4 - 1/4 tsp 3x...
Traces - 20 ml 3x...
Extra Iron (flourish iron) - 7.5 ml 3x...

At water change I have been adding 1 tsp. baking soda to raise KH because I was afraid PH was going to low.... I am now going to stop and leave things where they are as far as KH goes.... and like I said earlier i stopped adding things to change GH almost 4 weeks ago.

What I dont understand is why my GH is going up over the week? is it possible that from adding Seachem Eq, and things like epsom salts and CaSO4 to alter the GH.... that they have settled in the substrate and are slowly leaching into the water? I also had a small sea shell in the back of the tank making a cave for some of the fish to hide in, which I just removed today... is it possible that it was dissloving leaching Ca and Mg into the water? thought before I added things to change GH this shell was in the tank and it always held stable around 6 degrees... I dont really know what to make of this?

It seems to me that nutrients are more than covered and it would be safe to say that this problem isnt from lack of something.... I really think I have plenty of CO2 also, though the CO2 chart says that with a ph of 6.1 and KH of 6 that I would have a CO2 concentration of 143 ppm which could not possibly be right, else I would think my fish would be dead.
Im at a loss of what to do... seems like no matter what changes I make to the tank, plant health doesnt improve... any input would be appriciated.....

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

Im sorry but that didnt make any sense to me.... at all...

what?

Raise the night time redox? what does that mean? and what is the reason behind running an airstone at night?

Why would I do that? seems to me that the plants are going to need the trace elements are they? and by doing a large water change and then not doseing any... I would imange they are not going to be available at all very quickly?

And as far as the substrate.... on the bottom there is a real thin layer of peat, capped with several inches of Shultz aquatic soil..... topped with a real thin layer of pea gravel to help hold it down.... the tank has only been set up for a little less than a year, and there is no precipitated iron oxide on the roots as you have mentioned.... sorry I just didnt follow your post at all, could you please take time to explain what you ment? maybe others know what your talking about..... I couldnt follow... sorry
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

Yea that is an idea and one I have thought about.... though is that really the source of the problem? I dont really want to go through all of that work to finish and set up, only to have the same issue because it is something with how I am running the tank, or with my water chemisty. When i first started off I read a lot about putting a thin layer of peat down first as a good source of nutrients.... however now Im not so sure about it? might have been better off just using the aquatic soil, with the pea gravel to hold it down as it tends to be pretty light....
But anyway if others feel this is a possible source of the problem and a good way to go.... I might try it out. I know that the tank would need stripped of plants, rock and wood.... would I have to get all of the fish out also and totally remove the substrate? or would a simple DEEP vacum over say a week? hitting it once, or maybe even twice a day?
To tell you the truth with all I have put into this tank already i simply DO NOT in any way have the money to buy new substrate.... espically something like Flourite... Basically if you really think replacing it totally is important and the cause of things.... really the only thing I could afford would be like cat litter... or something along similar cost for the amount... comerical products are not in the budget at all....
Once again any feed back from others would be helpful... think that the substrate is acutally the source of these problems? or is it something more in how im running the tank? thanks a lot....
Matt

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

You know what I just thought of something that I should maybe clear up real fast because I am not sure if you are aware.... when I said I used Shultz aquatic soil on top of a thin layer of peat. This is not really a soil at all... I am not sure if you are fimilar with it cornhusker... It is actually a clay granular, fullers earth clay I believe.... it is similar to flourite in its physical make up, just cheaper... which Is why I choose it.... but any way then like I said on the very bottem there is peat sprinkled underneath everything but it isnt a very thick layer, maybe .5 to 1 cm at most..... just thought I would add that in because the Shultz sort of sounded like it is ACTUALLY a soil of sorts, which it is not at all....

 

Re: Slow deformed growth, and brittle plants....

Thanks a Lot for the reply tom.... I have known for a while that the extra K2SO4 was not needed, how ever just to be sure it was not something nutrient related... that is an easy enough way to rule it out. And as far as the other nutrients, like you mentioned even if the tank was paked with weeds NO3 would likely be sufficient. And I do have quite a few "weeds" to say in there, H. difformis and polysperma and Corymbosa... and also Myriophyllum simulans. Plant biomass isnt extremely dense, but there is a fair amount of plants.
As far as the Ph KH and CO2.... as with you I likely feel the KH is correct.... and as far as PH goes I have been using a Hanna PH pen to monitor that.... and stopped checking right from the tank a while ago because I was getting reading in the mid 5's (originally why I started adding baking soda to raise ph and KH thinking that this was to low of a PH to go)
Well I soon figured out that the lights... filter what ever else may have had affects was messing with the reading that that wasnt right. So I started taking a cup of tank water over to the bath room across the hall... But I still do not know how accurate the readings I am getting are as the reading on the PH pen seems to jump around a lot. And will change often if you touch the meter after it comes to rest at a given number.
So up the CO2 goes... LoL i have played this game before! I know the good way to do it now, last night I knocked it up a tiny bit, and Ill just keep doing it that way over the next few days until I see some stressing or gasping from the fish. I hope that this is possably reason behind this.
I have been thinking for quite some time now that I have pretty much ruled out that it wasnt lack of ferts. going back to 1/2 tsp. KNO3 and 1/4 tsp. KH2SO4, think its safe to say that is still more than enough no3 and po4?
thanks a lot I greatly appriciate it, and since changing over to a canister filter I have always had it with some good surface movement so that isnt an issue, that with turning CO2 off at night I dont think I really need to be running an air stone. Once again I get a little second wind, haha thinking ALRIGHT! this time i KNOW this is the problem, haha just really hope it is for real this time cause im getting really sick and tired of messing with this.... I want to work on aquascapes and the art part of it already
Matt