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Search for the obvious

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Henry Hatch, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. Henry Hatch

    Henry Hatch Guru Class Expert

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    One of the things I have tried to do as I progress in this hobby is to look for the most obvious solution to a problem. I remember once calling my ISP regarding a problem I had connecting to the NET. The problem was solved when I discovered my parrot had chewed through a cable.

    I have a 50 gallon co2 tank up for about 6 weeks. My dwarf saggitaria is growing in very pale and seems to show signs of fe deficiency. I am doing EI dosing and have a drop checker with a kh reference solution made with baking soda and distilled water. I added iron - no help.

    For now I won't get into all the parameters of my tank other than to say I have a reasonable level of confidence that my light, co2, and nutrient levels are ok.

    Tonight I stood back and while trying to come up with some exotic explanation of the problem, I noticed that the saggitaria plants seemed to be planted a little deep with the crown a little below the surface. So I went in and pulled them up a bit.

    Could something this simple be the cause of what appeared to be a nutrient problem ?

    Henry
     
  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    True, many times such simple issues often we overlook:eek:
    I do not think that is the case here.

    Sometimes tap water changes can mess with folks.
    They add more Chlorine or Copper or etc.....
    Or someone uses well water with high Na+ etc.

    Some plants might need some adaptation, but you should see signs of decent growth within 1 week for most plants and a good eye can see the change in growth in a few hours/1 day.

    Paleness can stem from many issues.
    Post a picture might help.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    I am having a similiar problem with my dwarf sags as well.

    My vals have shot out tons of new sprouts, my ozelot swords are growing many new healthy looking leaves and my pennywort and assorted stem plants are flourishing. However, my dwarf sags have started to turn a yellow and I only have two of them producing shoots. The only other plant that I may be having issues with is my crypt lucens which appears to be turning yellow as well (this may just be the color as crypts change in different tanks and the leaves feel sturdy), and an aquarium lily that was damaged in shipment and now all I have is a bulb that likes to grow algae. I thought a nutrient deficiency would show up on my stem plants first since they grow faster. Is this a wrong assumption?

    I thought it may be light since my dwarf sags are well dwarf but my lower portions on my stem plants are still thriving, and my new val sprouts are growing well also.

    I have only been set up for two weeks but all my other plants seem to be thriving and I heard dwarf sag can almost be invasive it grows so fast.

    Any ideas? Are Dwarf sags more sensitive to anything? I'm not at home otherwise I would post a photo.

    All I have outside of plant life is a bulldog pleco, 6 amano shrimp and I just added 9 danios yesterday. I'm waiting on my LFS to get some oto's.

    I am running a low tech no co2 no excel 75 gallon.
    Lighting is 4 40 watt t-12's 6700K
    I dose per the non co2 methods article with the exact products mentioned.
    I only top off evaporated water which is about 5 gallons a week or just under.
    I use Seachem prime as a water conditioner and probably overdose a little since I only treat 5 gallons at a time.
     
  4. Henry Hatch

    Henry Hatch Guru Class Expert

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    It's interesting you have a similar problem. Although my sags are growing in pale, I am actually seeing quite a bit of growth. I do have some sag in my low tech non co2 tank and they seem fine. I just ordered a digital camera which I will have next week. I will plan to poat a photo as soon as I figure out how to use my new toy.


    Henry
     
  5. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    Well not sure if I posted it right but heres one of my dwarf subulata any ideas what I'm missing or what is wrong? Is it an Iron deficiency and if so what besides equilibrium can I dose to help.
     

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  6. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    To me that has inadequate CO2 written all over it.
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    If you do EI for a week or two, that will rule out the nutrients, then you just have CO2 to contend with.

    If new growth is small, shortened etc, melting , it's very likely CO2.
    If you use EI, always look there first if there's algae or other issues, you can always do a mid week water change and more than 50% if you suspect anything and reset the tank.

    Then check the CO2 carefully.
    Excess CO2 will never hurt the plants, it'll just gas the fish.
    So if the plants are hurting, most often it's due to the CO2.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  8. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    Tom,

    I was trying to do a non co2 tank and I dose ferts so it is likely the co2. How then would I fix this? Is this a middle stage I have to deal with until the plants adapt or should I tone down my light wattage to try to match the co2 uptake? Growth rate is unimportant to me. Healthy plants is ;-)

    My ozelot sword, rotala indica, pennywort, are all doing well and growing pretty quickly. I just put a Ludwigia repens in there and it seems happy. I can't tell if the Ludwigia has grown as it is pretty large to begin with, but theres no loss of leaves or coloring.

    My val spiralis is producing new plants quickly(I had 20 I bet I have 40 or so now) and growth is good however the longer leaves turn brown at the tip and melt. Those were on the plant prior to my aquarium so I chalked that up to adapting to my tank.

    I did have some brown algae and some green algae of some sort on my anubias nana but I moved it closer to my stems and I woke up this morning and it was gone ;-) I have a little bit of brown algae on some of my other plants but I heard this sometimes is common in new tanks. I've got 6 amano shrimp that seem to keep most other algae at bay. I have some fuzz algae on my plants but it comes and goes as the shrimp snack on it. I plan on getting about 5 or 6 ottos as soon as I can find them around me and some more shrimp when my LFS restocks. There is no algae on my glass or the substrate.

    The only other thing in my tank that i have a question about is a dwarf aquarium lily bulb. The plant died in shipping but I planted the bulb anyway. It now get a bluish white fuzz on it and only it. I thought it was BGA. No new growth. I tried to pull it out and wash it a couple days ago but it grew right back. Also, the bulb stinks!! Is it dead? Should I just toss it?
     
  9. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    The tip of the leaf looks like it was physically damaged in some way, perhaps by being exposed to air or by contacting a hot light. The line of demarcation between dark and green seems too sharp for it to have been caused by a nutrient deficiency. Also, there don't seem to be similar areas on the other plants.

    Bill
     
  10. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    Lack of CO2 can cause exactly that look, its a common sight on java fern in bad CO2 conditions.



    Crazy-

    If your light is highish, and trying to drive fast growth, and your dosing nutrients, then it has to be CO2.. if you want to do a non-co2 tank, then turn down the lighting and switch to a light dosing schedule. The problems arise when we try to do something in the middle. Good light with no Co2 = nightmares on a stick.
     
  11. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    Dwarf sags (S. sublata) are heavy root feeders. You might try putting a piece of of Flourish Tabs beneath a few of the pale plants to see if that makes a difference. That would be an interesting experiment.

    Bill
     
  12. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    The only time that I see something like that on my Java ferns is when one sends a leaf out of the water and it contacts a fluorescent tube. CO2 is not injected.

    Some problems can have more than one cause.

    Bill
     
  13. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    Frolicsome- I am dosing pretty lightly per the non CO2 article. I may have a bit too much light though. 160 watts off NO on a 75 gallon, putting me just over 2 watts per gallon. My thought is was that since they are shop lights with poor reflectors my actual useable light would be low enough. I may remove one bulb and see.

    Aqua- It could have been physically damaged as they were shipped to me a few weeks ago and got colder then I would have liked. The only problem is it must be more than just the leaf as practically none of my sags have produced shoots. I pulled one up today though and it has a pretty healthy looking root system.

    The tank is just going into its third week so I will probably be patient and give it another week and then make a change. Keep the changes in three week increments and monitor.

    If I do take out a light bulb I still need to run four bulbs so I can get the third to work. You think I could use acitinic bulb as a filler since they aren't great for plant growth?


    Any ideas on the lily bulb?

    Thanks for all the help so far!
     
  14. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    I agree that theres nearly always more than one cause, especially in this hobby. But looking at the fact that theres 2wpg lighting, and no CO2 to speak of, I dont think you need to look much further than that. If its not the reason, its going to be a massive factor in healthy growth, so you cant rule it out.. and being the most important, it would have to be dealt with first.

    I know for a fact that if my CO2 drops down below good levels I have issues, with the same lighting, and thats with CO2 going in on a pressurised system.
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think just more time to adapt to the new tank is what is needed.
    3 weeks?

    Give it some time.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. aquabillpers

    aquabillpers Lifetime Charter Member
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    You are talking about what happens in a high light tank with injected CO2. The dynamics of a low light tank without injected CO2 are quite different.

    As I said, I have a 2 wpg tank without injected CO2 and I have not seen that kind of problem. Others, yes, many others, but not that kind. :)

    Java fern sometimes takes a while to get started, and at other times it just stops growing. With them, often patience cures the problem, as Tom said.

    Bill
     
  17. Frolicsome_Flora

    Frolicsome_Flora Guru Class Expert

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    What Im saying is that a low light thank with 2wpg isnt a low light tank. 2wpg is going to drive the plants harder in CO2 uptake, if there isnt any.
     
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think the tank could use CO2 at that light level, but many have grown non CO2 75 gal tanks with this same light set up.

    I'd use 2x Triton and 2x cool white mix.
    That, some patience, a little ferts perhaps, and wait.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. Crazymidwesterner

    Crazymidwesterner Guru Class Expert

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    Will do. Thanks Tom.
     
  20. Henry Hatch

    Henry Hatch Guru Class Expert

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    I just got a new digital camera. I hope this image posts ok.

    TANK SPECS

    50 gallon with 2.4 watts/gallon no flourscents set up 2 mos
    pressurized co2 >40 ppm using a drop checker

    DOSING

    1/2 tsp kno3 x2
    2 ml fleet x2
    25 ml tmg x3 (just started using tmg 1 week ago) I was using flourish and flourish fe

    Change 50% water twice/wk

    Sag is growing in pale but is still growing. Some tips of java fern are brown/yellow.

    Any thoughts ?
     
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