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Rotala wallichi tanks

Discussion in 'Journals' started by Tom Barr, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have some of this after redoing the garage tanks. I also have ample amounts of Rotala mexicana red and araguaia, A senegalensis, A pedicillata. the Erios and BV's do not count, they do not care.

    I have 2-3 tanks available to torture said plants.
    These serve as good control tanks for a good reason, they all grown these plants with little effort.
    More replicates.

    I can torture a few different ways.
    tank 1: add more Fe, say 0.05, 0.2, 1.0 ppm as DTPA, or as CMS+B. I'll likely go with the CMS+B first.
    tank 2: none
    tank three, a different treatment level or a replicate. Tank 3 will have less light though.

    I can alternate and repeat the test after 2-4 weeks to the other tanks, one set as a no dose control: now gets dose and the prior treated tank, no dosing.

    So while I lack the replicates being tested at the exact same time, I can do something called repeated measures. Which act like more replicates than say the two tanks. So if you do this 3 x, you now have say 6 replicates, enough to do statistical probability.

    The key here is to be able to grow the plants nice and robustly to begin with.
    Without that, you cannot be certain there are no dependent factors. Even here.........but..........the likelihood is extremely high there are not any.

    the hypothesis is negative plant will occur if I add 0.2ppm or higher Fe dosing and positive if I dose 0.05 and no change or negative growth without dosing any.

    The test after this includes the macro dosing along with traces.

    This is a lot of work, if..........if....I was not sure I could not recover these plants easily and grow them well already. So it's not entirely out of my way from what I am doing already. Dosing and noting the effects is rather easy.

    IMG_1180 (2).JPG
     
  2. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Why are you even doing this?
    Why not test ranges of co2?
    Or go beyond what you have gone with even higher lighting?

    Does this not go against what you say that fertilization is the easy of the three.

    Why not go deeper into the other two
    Or go harder waters like Dave lee for softer water plants

    or iono, many of many of more tests then ferts can be done, and i do not understand the plant choices either

    take it as constructive criticism only, i mean no offense
     
  3. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    Great to see you thinking about doing this. Whatever happens will shed valuable light on the subject.

    Should throw some ARs in the mix too if you any of those variegateds left. Be interesting to see what the leaves look like for you in all 3 conditions.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I have the varigated AR's as well, but they are still slightly wavy even with no dosing.
    Thus I cannot conclude much if I test because I lack enough control, even if that's possible.

    The Rotala red cross are doing well, but not entirely straight, still, better than anyone else's I've seen to date.

    Why am I doing this? to prove a point that many have nagged about for a few months, a year or two etc, mostly to highlight the correct logic approach when addressing nutrient cause hypotheses.
    I already know what occurs when CO2 is adjusted up/down.
    It's my go to advice, what I want to show hopefully is that the ferts independent of other factors help plants do better, not harm them.

    Why if I am sure? Because it's better to be certain and not guess and then I have a much stronger case.
    I have to prove it to myself beyond any reasonable doubt.

    I do not disbelieve other's observations however. But if I can show independent of other factors, that helps them and then I know to look elsewhere.
    So do they. Then everyone can move on. Some never will, many will rehash the same mistakes of the past. I am not concerning myself about those folks.

    The other issue here is the specific plant species.
     
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  5. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    I know how this is going to go.

    Other than wallichii, most Lythraceae are happier with higher nutrients. If that sounds contrary to what people THINK I've been saying, then I'm a shitty communicator and my nuance was lost. I need to type more slowly so people can understand. May be type in Spanish?

    All these plants need nutrients. Like most plants, they look more vigorous and have better colors under EI....UNDER. SOME. CONDITIONS. In my tank, when offered EI, these plants have gorgeous color. Vigorous growth. And unpredictable and usually severe stunting after a couple of days. POR QUE? With very little nutrients in the water column, they do not stunt as much, but look sad. De nuevo,¿POR QUÉ? Back off on nutrients too much and you still get stunting from deficiencies.

    I know they do better with more nutrients, but it backfires.

    If you keep the nutrients in the substrate, it backfires far less. ¿POR QUÉ?

    This is why I've been calling it CONDITIONAL TOLERANCE (in your tank conditions) and CONDITIONAL INTOLERANCE (in my tanks).

    There are dependencies that we do not understand. That's as much as I know. I did not know that a year ago. But I do now. That's where we run out of answers.

    Can you grow Araguaia and pedicellata, and praetermissa in higher trace levels. YES!!! Many people have shown us pictures of their tanks with very high levels of nutrients. These plants TOLERATE lower nutrients in the water column better than most. But they also TOLERATE higher nutrients in the water column...UNDER. SOME. CONDITIONS.

    These tanks in the garage will grow beautiful plants. It will generate pretty pictures. I will enjoy looking at them.

    In the end, it will confirm what we already know. And not shed light on what we don't.
     
  6. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    I am growing wallichii in capped Miracle-Gro and sometimes double EI macro dosing once per week.
    Very lean on micro dosing, one EI dose per week.
    It is growing like a weed, having sold off 80 stems in a few months, retaining 30 or so @ all times.

    This was always my stunted plant in the past.
    Substrates included SafeTSorb and/or inert quartz.
    Always over 30ppm CO2.
     
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  7. Kyalgae

    Kyalgae Lifetime Members
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    [​IMG]
    I am very excite for this.
     
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  8. guppyganker

    guppyganker Junior Poster
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    Just one example that really means nothing but. This is an OLD tank. Actually my first co2 injected tank, this was before I did much testing. With this tank I was following nilocg dosing instructions exactly. So csmb dosed to .5fe every other day. tap comes out at about 1dgh and I was dosing .33dgh at waterchange, kh from tap is maybe 1kh. Co2 was dosed just on the safe side of fish stress (no ph testing at that point). Substrate was black diamond blasting grit with no substrate ferts. This is the best ive gotten Wallichi to grow. The ar mini was terribly stunted in this tank.

    I still have a hard time in the 75. Targeting .2ppm fe 3dgh 1kh and standard EI macros (for those paying attention that's half of what ive been dosing), ive had ar mini and ammania gracillis grow quite well in this tank.

    It will be good to see some controlled tests. Long story short I kind of agree with pikez on this one, I think its far more complicated than just fe.
     
    #8 guppyganker, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  9. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    @Tom Barr Can I see pics of the Rotala Red Cross.

    Here's what I have growing, so wanted to compare
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Nope, if I were to predict. R. mexicana red, and the arag I'm still not certain about, they like little, but rich sediment.
    Wallichii I know does great at full EI. But it also does well for soil only. Same for Cuphea, but overall, Cuphea is easiler to get a full group, but poorer in color, without any ferts, just the rich soil.
    With more effort and trimming, you get nice color and nice appearances.

    This is true for many species, it just takes folks more time to realize it and master it.
    Adding plants to rich soil and nothing in the water column, no water changes etc, that's pretty easy method to master.

    Trimming and adding more Ferts, more upkeep etc?
    Harder, but you get something out of it.

    R mexciana red stunted, as did the arag when I simply did a uprooting and cleaning, no water change(but that also did something).
    They recover and grow out nicely, but that is without any dosing.............or water changes..........

    So..........

    I would say there dependencies, but these do not appear to be growth dependenices.
    Trim and uprooting are dependencies? It happens less and less with the Arag, but the Red is wimpy, but recovers quickly.

    Both are in these tanks also.
    I'm not sure I'd use the terms conditional tolerance and intolerance. I'd just stick with dependencies.
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Looks okay
     
  12. deepgreen

    deepgreen Member

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    It would be great if you can give some more background information. Not everybody is familiar with your tanks especially if somebody reads this some time later, e.g. what type of soil and how old. I guess tank1 and 2 would not receive macros during the test? Will you give the plants some time with no ferts before you start? I do not know whether they have some "memory" of previous condition such as some storage of ferts, but maybe you know.

    Thanks for doing this! It is very useful and convincing to see the evidence. One can go back to it and check again at a later point.
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Soil seems to be a big factor for many. ADA AS, but...........such commercial and DIY sediments like these are more standard these days than say 20 years ago.
    I never have issues with Rotala's with soils, most any plant, there's not one I'm aware of that prefers sand vs soil.
    So while I could add that as factor in the test, I shall not, because it's pretty much now a standard method.

    Like adding CO2............or higher light, or ferts..........

    Note, it grows well in the garage tanks also, slower, but nice and pink, lighter pink, mostly due to low N.
    In the 120, deeper red, same for Cuphea and others.

    If, I add some new ADA AS, I'm thinking about doing this here.................it'll turn deeper red and grow faster, everything will.
    I likely will do that here.

    Red cross is looking very nice, all plants are in a tank I added some new soil to, about 3 cups worth.
    So I'll do it to the others I think before dosing the traces.
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I may get pics up later this weekend. Still deciding what I want in the tank. Need a bit more biomass, need to be able to see the species in question and get pics.
    I'll add more ADA AS today.

    That will remove the macros as a dependency.
    I also sold some plants, so now there's ample room for the others.

    I added some S. uaupes from Dennis to two tanks.
    The S bolivia 2004, basically like a Tonina wide leaf and shorter, perked way up since putting in some new ADA AS.
    Likely the case for a few species.

    I'll certainly have to trim these tanks as the test moves forward.
    I bleached the diffusers, so CO2 is pretty good and cooking along.
    RCS and plecos are present and doing well(breeding for the RCS), no sign of being gassed at all.

    Temps have come way down since summer, I do not want to run this when it's 100F in the garage and tank temps in the 90's.
    Now we are at about 80F in the garage and the heaters likely will be kicking on.
     
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  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Tom, for some reason your previous post was posted 3 times. We could rid of two :)

    One question about adding new AS: do you just add it over the old one, or remove the old one first and replace it with the new one?
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I agree. So to sort through such complexity, you NEED a step wise series of test, not just 1 test with lots of reps and labor.
    If you have say 8 variables, ruling out 1 variable at a time is far easier...than trying to muddle through and find the "cause" with many variables.

    You also risk a lot more assumptions with many variables............

    The other goal for Hobbyists, not research................are using common methods such as dosing, CO2 gas, good light, and sediments.
    I grew very nice wallichii in a similar tank with plain sand also, but it's consistent with ADA AS, and AR mini and the others grow extremely well and very easily.
    We add CO2 for a similar reason..............it makes it easier to grow and trim plants, effectively making it easier to garden.

    So using ADA aqua soil seems along these same lines.
    It's clear that overall, it helps and does not harm any plant both with and without water column dosing.
    Thus I see little reason to test plain sand again compared to ADA AS. Been there, done that.
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Done

    You can do either method, it you have ratty looking soil, algae, or mush, or compacted solid blocks of soil..............then remove it. You can siphon off the top layer, then add the new on top. I do not add the new on the bottom and then old on top. Sort of for obvious reasons. I have replaced about 1/3 of the soil in established tanks without any issues to livestock. Note, I have not done water changes in these tanks either.............so all that NH4........

    I am redoing my 120 coming up, the solenoid got gummed up and it took me a while to fix it. No/poor CO2= hair algae. Every time in that tank.
    But I'll remove ample amounts of the soil there, likely deep vac the soil that's loose, save that, then remove the rest. Then add the old on the bottom, add at least 2 bags of the NEW ADA AS on top.
     
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  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Redid the two main tanks this will use.

    They have equal parts new ADA AS. There are other plants generally also such as Erio type in the front 1/2 so you can see the stems in the rear.
    I trimmed back the wallichii to about 5 inches and uprooted and replanted the tops.
    Senegal needed it, and the R mex araguaia cetrainly did.

    I may add some A. praetermissa to these tanks.
    It's tough if you trim it often and move it around.
    I'd say it's good for nature style, poor for dutch style.

    A senegalensis, pedicillata, gracilius,crassicaulis and R. wallichii, Cuphea are good for Dutch style, you can trim them like crazy(topping works nicely as well). Red cross perhaps is in this group.
    R mex red, argauaia and A. praetermissa, .....not so much. Topping works best for these three vs uprooting and then replanting only the tops.
    Topping araguaia produces a nice looking stand of plants. Mex Red, it's a bit of a ratty plant. I get nice color and size, health, reproduction, but the plant is fickle.
    It's been in the hobby a long time, but never that popular or used much, likely being a ratty plant is why? I'd say yes. Araguaia offers more use.

    I recently compared the effect on the ADA AS on a old tank and then one where I added the new soil. Big effect.
    No surprise. But more than I'd thought, eg, better color etc.

    Erios also root very well in new ADA AS vs the older soil. Same for Blood vomit.
     
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  19. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    Rotala walichi in 100lt tank.
    Gravel mix flourite.

    DSC_5831.jpg
     
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  20. burr740

    burr740 ~~ Lover of Micros ~~
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    Tom, what is the PH level of these tanks and the 120, roughly, before and after co2?

    Specifically curious if it's at or below 6.5 most of the time, or if ever gets much higher, say degassing overnight
     
  21. maciek_L

    maciek_L New Member

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    Some times ago I asking Tom about this issue in your 120 gal (in the thread on UKAPS). The answer was: 5.8-6 ph during light on, and 6.8 ph when light is off. If I remeber correctly
     
    #20 maciek_L, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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