@burr740 here reports that eco complete is a high CEC substrate.
I'm confused.
View attachment 14165
Got to try this new kind of “Osmocote tank”... do you think it is possible to find the perfect situation in this environment by finding a balanced, maybe lean regime for the water column?
I am surprised you are not getting stunting I suffered from high water column phosphate leaching from osmocote.
Mine was however eco complete, your being soil, it might bind those phosphate.
How long has it been since setup?
No, it's not inert. It's Seachem flourite black, porous clay.
Ammania is going bad since I increased macro dosing. Now I'm at 30ppm kno3, 30ppm K and 3.6 po4 weekly.
AgMa - I saw your post on TPT. Nice tank. You have Ammannia gracilis. It's not crassicaulis or whatever it was sold to you as. A. gracilis is sensitive to SOMETHING if dosed in the water. A German expert once told me it was high K. But I haven't seen that in my tank, where I have been dosing 25 ppm K for 3 months. I know people who have dosed close to 100 ppm K without stunting in Ammannia.
Mind you, I have had Ammannia gracilis in my big (Dutch) tank with Aquasoil for many years consistently. It has been stunted for most of that time. It'd never die. But always stunted. It finally became unstunted after I reduce water column nitrate to 15 ppm per week. I strongly suspect (but need more proof to say with more conviction) that high water column nitrates are part of the problem. I don't think ammonia in the substrate is an issue at all. This plant is also very comfortable in hard water. NO need for RO.
Anyway, the issue with 15 ppm per week is that you're riding a razor's edge. It is very easy for N to go to zero by the end of the week. There are several plants that simply will not look nice at that low levels. But you know what? All Lythraceae are happier at 15 ppm nitrate dosed in one shot versus much higher nitrate in water column. There is no denying what I'm witnessing in the big tank (not the Kill Tanks) and this is the only explanation I have.
AgMa - I saw your post on TPT. Nice tank. You have Ammannia gracilis. It's not crassicaulis or whatever it was sold to you as. A. gracilis is sensitive to SOMETHING if dosed in the water. A German expert once told me it was high K. But I haven't seen that in my tank, where I have been dosing 25 ppm K for 3 months. I know people who have dosed close to 100 ppm K without stunting in Ammannia.
Mind you, I have had Ammannia gracilis in my big (Dutch) tank with Aquasoil for many years consistently. It has been stunted for most of that time. It'd never die. But always stunted. It finally became unstunted after I reduce water column nitrate to 15 ppm per week. I strongly suspect (but need more proof to say with more conviction) that high water column nitrates are part of the problem. I don't think ammonia in the substrate is an issue at all. This plant is also very comfortable in hard water. NO need for RO.
Anyway, the issue with 15 ppm per week is that you're riding a razor's edge. It is very easy for N to go to zero by the end of the week. There are several plants that simply will not look nice at that low levels. But you know what? All Lythraceae are happier at 15 ppm nitrate dosed in one shot versus much higher nitrate in water column. There is no denying what I'm witnessing in the big tank (not the Kill Tanks) and this is the only explanation I have.
Very interesting Vin... what do you mean with "dosed in one shot"? Just once a week?
Gracilis?
Till 2-3 days ago I thought that it was nesaea crassicaulis. After that I learned from burr740 that it's named Ammania now.
Now I learned it's cracilis. Sure thing it is plant.
Btw thanks for the info.
If I dose 15ppm no3, by the end of week it will be the same. I don't know if my plants absorb it or if it's fish waste (I have 9 small fish and I don't believe they produce that).
Anyway I stop it, it's your thread
And how these 2-3ppm nitrates were measured?Name doesn't matter. It is a pretty orange plant.
If you dose 15 ppm into a densely planted high tech tank with inert soil, high light, non-limiting other nutrients, and rich CO2, you should expect the nitrate level to go down by 2 to 3 ppm per day. This has been documented. Test kit results are not meaningful.
Yes, Fab, I have been dosing 15 ppm nitrate from KNO3 once a week, right after water change. That is in the big 'Dutch' tank that is now a farm tank. Also dose a quarter tsp of Urea daily, mostly because I barely feed the fish and I want some non-nitrate form of N in the water.
Mind you, before that dosing change, the Dutch tank was being dosed nearly 100 ppm nitrates for a month or two. Ludwigia glandulosa, Proserpinaca, Limno chinensis, Staurogyne Low Grow and a few other plants where huge, big, and weedy with 100 ppm nitrates. I am sure I am missing the names of a few other plants that just LOVED ultra-high nitrates. Lythraceae were not lovers of that much nitrates.
With the 15 ppm nitrates, the Staurogyne Low Grow leave went from 4-5" long to just 2" long. L glandulosa looks small and is shedding lower leaves. I have to move the Proserpinaca to the Osmocote tank to keep them alive.
At 100 ppm nitrate, the Ammannia gracilis, Rotala Mac Variegated and several other Lythraceae were all stunted and gimpy. None died. But they remained stunted for a year or two when I was always above 30 or 40 ppm nitrate. My guess is I was around 50 or 60 ppm for a couple of years.
About 2 to 3 weeks after I went to 15 ppm once a week, it is as if most Rotala and Ammannia woke up from a deep slumber. I have a Rotala Mac from Sri Lanka that was supposed to be a 'micro' variety. It was stunted for a long time. It suddenly began to grow and it is NOT a micro variety, it turns out. It got big and bronze.
Based on all this, if I were growing exclusively Lythraceae, I'd keep the nitrate below 20. Much below 15 ppm and some of the hungrier plants like macrandra and A. pedicellata start to complain. I'd say that of all the Lythraceae I have in that tank, A. pedicellata Gold is the one which wants higher nitrate. A. pedicellata green (wild form) is happy. It is possible that the artificial variety needs more N to grow, which is not surprising.
If you decide to do 15 ppm once a week, make sure you pay close attention. You may cut it close for many species as N levels approach zero. That'll cause issues. Lower light and reduce biomass if you decided to go with 15 ppm.
I did not pull that 15 ppm out of thin air. It is based on Ghazanfar Ghori's Rotala formula of 13 ppm dosed mostly on Day 1 and 10 or 20% dosed on Days 3 and 5. Also, I was inspired by Dennis Wong's lower nitrate higher P and K dosing style after spending time with him in Singapore this past summer.
And how these 2-3ppm nitrates were measured?
Like I've said before, they always read like a good book. You never know how they will end.
Very, very interesting and useful info, thanks Vin!
Now I m curious to know how much you dose for P an K compared to such low nitrates... you are just feeding my curiosity!
And about the daily dose of urea , is that causing you any algae?
“Some must die so others may live.”I kill off my favorite plants.
Vin this discussion is very interesting to me, and is something that I believe is little understood in the general planted tank community.Couple of plants really loving life feeding on Osmocote.
Murdannia was OK but slow at 15 ppm nitrate per week in the big tank. Proserpinaca was near dead at 15 ppm. I want to move Hyptis from the 15 ppm tank to Osmocote because Hyptis have no color and is REALLY slow at 15 ppm nitrate. Ludwigia senegalensis is the only Ludwigia loving life at 15 ppm Nitrate. I'm slowly moving hungry plants away and into the richer environments.