Rotala Kill Tank

burr740

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Damn that's an old post, lol. Yeah that was just a disclaimer that folks with different substrates probably wouldnt be successful copying my exact dosing at the time of super low micros.

I dont know how much cec Eco has but its more than sand, that was my only point. My apologies if I mis-classified it! :)
 

fablau

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@burr740 here reports that eco complete is a high CEC substrate.
I'm confused.

View attachment 14165

I think that's a mistake. Eco complete cannot be compared to ADA or dirt/potting soils. Eco complete has much lower CEC compared to those soils. I have proven that myself several times, by just dosing macros. In a tank with fresh ADA, if you dose 5 ppm of No3 it disappears after a 10-20 minutes. In a tank with Eco, that'll stay around for a long time... in other words, high CEC substrates need more water column dosing than low CEC if you want to keep nutrients in the water column long enough for plants to use, that applies to both macros and micros.
 
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Pikez

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Got to try this new kind of “Osmocote tank”... do you think it is possible to find the perfect situation in this environment by finding a balanced, maybe lean regime for the water column?

Yes, absolutely. Try it in a small tank first. That way, if it goes bad, you can easily tear it down and start over.

Key thing to remember is that you can't uproot constantly. If you do, it'll be a mess.
 
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Pikez

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I am surprised you are not getting stunting I suffered from high water column phosphate leaching from osmocote.
Mine was however eco complete, your being soil, it might bind those phosphate.
How long has it been since setup?

It's been 3 months since set up.

I've not seen a link between high P and stunting. I think high P is far less likely to cause stunting than high N in water column.
 
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Pikez

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No, it's not inert. It's Seachem flourite black, porous clay.
Ammania is going bad since I increased macro dosing. Now I'm at 30ppm kno3, 30ppm K and 3.6 po4 weekly.

AgMa - I saw your post on TPT. Nice tank. You have Ammannia gracilis. It's not crassicaulis or whatever it was sold to you as. A. gracilis is sensitive to SOMETHING if dosed in the water. A German expert once told me it was high K. But I haven't seen that in my tank, where I have been dosing 25 ppm K for 3 months. I know people who have dosed close to 100 ppm K without stunting in Ammannia.

Mind you, I have had Ammannia gracilis in my big (Dutch) tank with Aquasoil for many years consistently. It has been stunted for most of that time. It'd never die. But always stunted. It finally became unstunted after I reduce water column nitrate to 15 ppm per week. I strongly suspect (but need more proof to say with more conviction) that high water column nitrates are part of the problem. I don't think ammonia in the substrate is an issue at all. This plant is also very comfortable in hard water. NO need for RO.

Anyway, the issue with 15 ppm per week is that you're riding a razor's edge. It is very easy for N to go to zero by the end of the week. There are several plants that simply will not look nice at that low levels. But you know what? All Lythraceae are happier at 15 ppm nitrate dosed in one shot versus much higher nitrate in water column. There is no denying what I'm witnessing in the big tank (not the Kill Tanks) and this is the only explanation I have.
 
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fablau

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AgMa - I saw your post on TPT. Nice tank. You have Ammannia gracilis. It's not crassicaulis or whatever it was sold to you as. A. gracilis is sensitive to SOMETHING if dosed in the water. A German expert once told me it was high K. But I haven't seen that in my tank, where I have been dosing 25 ppm K for 3 months. I know people who have dosed close to 100 ppm K without stunting in Ammannia.

Mind you, I have had Ammannia gracilis in my big (Dutch) tank with Aquasoil for many years consistently. It has been stunted for most of that time. It'd never die. But always stunted. It finally became unstunted after I reduce water column nitrate to 15 ppm per week. I strongly suspect (but need more proof to say with more conviction) that high water column nitrates are part of the problem. I don't think ammonia in the substrate is an issue at all. This plant is also very comfortable in hard water. NO need for RO.

Anyway, the issue with 15 ppm per week is that you're riding a razor's edge. It is very easy for N to go to zero by the end of the week. There are several plants that simply will not look nice at that low levels. But you know what? All Lythraceae are happier at 15 ppm nitrate dosed in one shot versus much higher nitrate in water column. There is no denying what I'm witnessing in the big tank (not the Kill Tanks) and this is the only explanation I have.

Very interesting Vin... what do you mean with "dosed in one shot"? Just once a week?
 

AgMa

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AgMa - I saw your post on TPT. Nice tank. You have Ammannia gracilis. It's not crassicaulis or whatever it was sold to you as. A. gracilis is sensitive to SOMETHING if dosed in the water. A German expert once told me it was high K. But I haven't seen that in my tank, where I have been dosing 25 ppm K for 3 months. I know people who have dosed close to 100 ppm K without stunting in Ammannia.

Mind you, I have had Ammannia gracilis in my big (Dutch) tank with Aquasoil for many years consistently. It has been stunted for most of that time. It'd never die. But always stunted. It finally became unstunted after I reduce water column nitrate to 15 ppm per week. I strongly suspect (but need more proof to say with more conviction) that high water column nitrates are part of the problem. I don't think ammonia in the substrate is an issue at all. This plant is also very comfortable in hard water. NO need for RO.

Anyway, the issue with 15 ppm per week is that you're riding a razor's edge. It is very easy for N to go to zero by the end of the week. There are several plants that simply will not look nice at that low levels. But you know what? All Lythraceae are happier at 15 ppm nitrate dosed in one shot versus much higher nitrate in water column. There is no denying what I'm witnessing in the big tank (not the Kill Tanks) and this is the only explanation I have.

Gracilis?
Till 2-3 days ago I thought that it was nesaea crassicaulis. After that I learned from burr740 that it's named Ammania now.
Now I learned it's cracilis. Sure thing it is plant:D.
Btw thanks for the info.
If I dose 15ppm no3, by the end of week it will be the same. I don't know if my plants absorb it or if it's fish waste (I have 9 small fish and I don't believe they produce that).
Anyway I stop it, it's your thread :)
 
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Pikez

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Very interesting Vin... what do you mean with "dosed in one shot"? Just once a week?

Yes, Fab, I have been dosing 15 ppm nitrate from KNO3 once a week, right after water change. That is in the big 'Dutch' tank that is now a farm tank. Also dose a quarter tsp of Urea daily, mostly because I barely feed the fish and I want some non-nitrate form of N in the water.

Mind you, before that dosing change, the Dutch tank was being dosed nearly 100 ppm nitrates for a month or two. Ludwigia glandulosa, Proserpinaca, Limno chinensis, Staurogyne Low Grow and a few other plants where huge, big, and weedy with 100 ppm nitrates. I am sure I am missing the names of a few other plants that just LOVED ultra-high nitrates. Lythraceae were not lovers of that much nitrates.

With the 15 ppm nitrates, the Staurogyne Low Grow leave went from 4-5" long to just 2" long. L glandulosa looks small and is shedding lower leaves. I have to move the Proserpinaca to the Osmocote tank to keep them alive.

At 100 ppm nitrate, the Ammannia gracilis, Rotala Mac Variegated and several other Lythraceae were all stunted and gimpy. None died. But they remained stunted for a year or two when I was always above 30 or 40 ppm nitrate. My guess is I was around 50 or 60 ppm for a couple of years.

About 2 to 3 weeks after I went to 15 ppm once a week, it is as if most Rotala and Ammannia woke up from a deep slumber. I have a Rotala Mac from Sri Lanka that was supposed to be a 'micro' variety. It was stunted for a long time. It suddenly began to grow and it is NOT a micro variety, it turns out. It got big and bronze.

Based on all this, if I were growing exclusively Lythraceae, I'd keep the nitrate below 20. Much below 15 ppm and some of the hungrier plants like macrandra and A. pedicellata start to complain. I'd say that of all the Lythraceae I have in that tank, A. pedicellata Gold is the one which wants higher nitrate. A. pedicellata green (wild form) is happy. It is possible that the artificial variety needs more N to grow, which is not surprising.

If you decide to do 15 ppm once a week, make sure you pay close attention. You may cut it close for many species as N levels approach zero. That'll cause issues. Lower light and reduce biomass if you decided to go with 15 ppm.

I did not pull that 15 ppm out of thin air. It is based on Ghazanfar Ghori's Rotala formula of 13 ppm dosed mostly on Day 1 and 10 or 20% dosed on Days 3 and 5. Also, I was inspired by Dennis Wong's lower nitrate higher P and K dosing style after spending time with him in Singapore this past summer.
 
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Pikez

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Gracilis?
Till 2-3 days ago I thought that it was nesaea crassicaulis. After that I learned from burr740 that it's named Ammania now.
Now I learned it's cracilis. Sure thing it is plant:D.
Btw thanks for the info.
If I dose 15ppm no3, by the end of week it will be the same. I don't know if my plants absorb it or if it's fish waste (I have 9 small fish and I don't believe they produce that).
Anyway I stop it, it's your thread :)

Name doesn't matter. It is a pretty orange plant. :)

If you dose 15 ppm into a densely planted high tech tank with inert soil, high light, non-limiting other nutrients, and rich CO2, you should expect the nitrate level to go down by 2 to 3 ppm per day. This has been documented. Test kit results are not meaningful.
 

AgMa

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Name doesn't matter. It is a pretty orange plant. :)

If you dose 15 ppm into a densely planted high tech tank with inert soil, high light, non-limiting other nutrients, and rich CO2, you should expect the nitrate level to go down by 2 to 3 ppm per day. This has been documented. Test kit results are not meaningful.
And how these 2-3ppm nitrates were measured?
 

Greggz

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Hey Vin just wanted to thank you for last few posts above.

Very, very interesting stuff and much to digest and learn there.

It makes some of the things I have noticed in my own tank make more sense.

Keep the experiments coming. Like I've said before, they always read like a good book. You never know how they will end.
 
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fablau

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Yes, Fab, I have been dosing 15 ppm nitrate from KNO3 once a week, right after water change. That is in the big 'Dutch' tank that is now a farm tank. Also dose a quarter tsp of Urea daily, mostly because I barely feed the fish and I want some non-nitrate form of N in the water.

Mind you, before that dosing change, the Dutch tank was being dosed nearly 100 ppm nitrates for a month or two. Ludwigia glandulosa, Proserpinaca, Limno chinensis, Staurogyne Low Grow and a few other plants where huge, big, and weedy with 100 ppm nitrates. I am sure I am missing the names of a few other plants that just LOVED ultra-high nitrates. Lythraceae were not lovers of that much nitrates.

With the 15 ppm nitrates, the Staurogyne Low Grow leave went from 4-5" long to just 2" long. L glandulosa looks small and is shedding lower leaves. I have to move the Proserpinaca to the Osmocote tank to keep them alive.

At 100 ppm nitrate, the Ammannia gracilis, Rotala Mac Variegated and several other Lythraceae were all stunted and gimpy. None died. But they remained stunted for a year or two when I was always above 30 or 40 ppm nitrate. My guess is I was around 50 or 60 ppm for a couple of years.

About 2 to 3 weeks after I went to 15 ppm once a week, it is as if most Rotala and Ammannia woke up from a deep slumber. I have a Rotala Mac from Sri Lanka that was supposed to be a 'micro' variety. It was stunted for a long time. It suddenly began to grow and it is NOT a micro variety, it turns out. It got big and bronze.

Based on all this, if I were growing exclusively Lythraceae, I'd keep the nitrate below 20. Much below 15 ppm and some of the hungrier plants like macrandra and A. pedicellata start to complain. I'd say that of all the Lythraceae I have in that tank, A. pedicellata Gold is the one which wants higher nitrate. A. pedicellata green (wild form) is happy. It is possible that the artificial variety needs more N to grow, which is not surprising.

If you decide to do 15 ppm once a week, make sure you pay close attention. You may cut it close for many species as N levels approach zero. That'll cause issues. Lower light and reduce biomass if you decided to go with 15 ppm.

I did not pull that 15 ppm out of thin air. It is based on Ghazanfar Ghori's Rotala formula of 13 ppm dosed mostly on Day 1 and 10 or 20% dosed on Days 3 and 5. Also, I was inspired by Dennis Wong's lower nitrate higher P and K dosing style after spending time with him in Singapore this past summer.

Very, very interesting and useful info, thanks Vin!

Now I m curious to know how much you dose for P an K compared to such low nitrates... you are just feeding my curiosity!

And about the daily dose of urea , is that causing you any algae?

Thank you again.
 

Pikez

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Very, very interesting and useful info, thanks Vin!

Now I m curious to know how much you dose for P an K compared to such low nitrates... you are just feeding my curiosity!

And about the daily dose of urea , is that causing you any algae?

I dose 3 ppm phosphate with the 15 ppm nitrate right after water change. And 3 more ppm again, on Day 3.

K is probably around 23 to 25 from the heaped tablespoon of K2SO4 that I add along with my GH chems. (3 tbsp Cal sulfate, 2 Mag sulfate, and 1 Pot sulfate right after WC). I think the Phosphate may add one or two ppm K.

I don't think Urea is causing algae

Usually when I get algae, is GSA. Green dust disappeared immediately after lowering nitrate. BGA disappeared right after I vacuumed the substrate and cleaned the filter. GSA happens when nitrates have bottomed out and some plants start to suffer and stop growing. Instead of increasing nitrates, my response has been to reduce number of stems in the tank and lower light to reduce nutrient demand. Stem count is currently still too high. I am constantly removing plants from the tank. I can't keep up. I've probably reduced light by 20% or so. Not sure what the umols is at substrate.
 

Pikez

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Couple of plants really loving life feeding on Osmocote.

Murdannia was OK but slow at 15 ppm nitrate per week in the big tank. Proserpinaca was near dead at 15 ppm. I want to move Hyptis from the 15 ppm tank to Osmocote because Hyptis have no color and is REALLY slow at 15 ppm nitrate. Ludwigia senegalensis is the only Ludwigia loving life at 15 ppm Nitrate. I'm slowly moving hungry plants away and into the richer environments.

Proserpinaca palustris Maryland





Murdannia sp. Red

 

fablau

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Thanks Vin for the info provided above. It is very interesting the fact you can control GDA by lowering nitrates. I have actually experienced the same exact thing in my 20gl in the garage: I screwed nitrates for the past month (for a dosing mistake) and was dosing double nitrates, and they must have accumulated too much because I started seeing GDA in the glass and some BGA around (and some plants suffered a little as well)... well, I performed several water changes and got back into the right dosing, and everything is now back to normal after just 1 week. And Nitrates were the only thing I changed to make algae appear!
 

Greggz

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Couple of plants really loving life feeding on Osmocote.

Murdannia was OK but slow at 15 ppm nitrate per week in the big tank. Proserpinaca was near dead at 15 ppm. I want to move Hyptis from the 15 ppm tank to Osmocote because Hyptis have no color and is REALLY slow at 15 ppm nitrate. Ludwigia senegalensis is the only Ludwigia loving life at 15 ppm Nitrate. I'm slowly moving hungry plants away and into the richer environments.
Vin this discussion is very interesting to me, and is something that I believe is little understood in the general planted tank community.

I've learned that different species have different optimum parameters. I got into a few discussions (arguments) with folks who thought they had the perfect fert formula. Fert nirvana if you will. Proof was perfect Wallichii growing by itself in a small tank. My argument was always let's see what happens when you throw some Pantanal or another 20 species in there with it. Not so optimum for everything else is my guess.

I'm grateful to see your experiments, as it sheds light on how different species react to different environments. Very much aligns with my own experience. A good example is the Senegalensis above. I had some for a short time, but it never really did much. Seeing how it is loving low nitrates, my very high nutrient rich environment was probably not a good fit.

Lots of posts asking what's my deficiency with a certain plant. Problem is try to please that one and who knows what else suffers. IMO truth is some will be very difficult if not impossible to keep together at peak health. And if you value your sanity you should take into consideration.

Anyway, really valuable stuff, so thanks again.