Rotala Kill Tank

fablau

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Very good stuff indeed! I wish to contribute to the discussion by telling you my experience with Rotala Nanjenshan, that since I moved into EI I am no longer able to grow it (it just stops growing and dies...).


The pictures below are from my tank 8 years ago, much before I discovered EI. That's my current 75gl tank, and at that time I had just Eco Complete as substrate topped with gravel, and dosing just 5m of Flourish Comprehensive once a week (!!!). At that time I had just 3 T8 lights on that tank (40w each, for a total of 120w), 8 hours a day. Co2 was just 3 bubbles per second, I guess about 0.6-0.7 PH drop? But I remember I used to start Co2 very early in the morning (at around 6am) and stop at around 9pm. Lights used to start at around 1pm and stop at 9pm.


Other details: I always had a over-sized sump, so I guess I had a lot of degassing. Also, I used to not clean pre-filters much (probably just one a month?) and I remember I had almost no circulation, I had a very small Eheim 1000 driving everything (Co2 AM1000 reactor included!)


At that time, no algae in the tank, zero. Java moss also used to grow like crazy, and now I struggle to keep it alive.


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Pikez

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burr740 said:
Maybe you havent found the actual "sweet spot" yet, just moved a lot closer to it.

If I am being fair, then, yes, I cannot discount your statement. If my low-trace dosage is NOT the sweet spot, but just closer to it, then, theoretically, I could still have stunting from incorrect traces. TBH I must admit finding that hard to fathom. :)


Now that I am working with an even more sensitive stunting indicator (Ammannia pedicellata), I barely even look at wallichii or Enie, both of which also stunt from time to time.


My A. pedicellata which took 2-3 weeks in the Kill Tank to un-stunt, re-stunted when the biomass got out of control from lack of trimming. When I reduced biomass, the A. pedicellata started growing well again. No change in trace dosing at all. The ONLY change was dramatic reduction in biomass. There is definitely a correlation between biomass (competition for resources) and Ammannia pedicellata stunting. Can't say whether it's a cause and effect thing.


I have also not ruled out the possibility that wallichii and pedicellata stunt for different reasons. And Red Cross for yet another entirely different reason.


Wallichii tip stunts very consistently in experiments conducted by Marcel Golias each time nutrient load is increased. His experiments are not pseudo-scientific like mine. His experiments are precise and highly controlled. He has shown this pattern over and over, I don't know how many times. Even though he may be persona non grata around these parts, you cannot argue with the clarity of his good science. At least with his experiment model. That's the rub. It has been shown in his experimental model, but results are different in tanks with differing CEC substrates and conditions.


This is why I am keeping nutrient imbalances on the table as one of the possible reasons for Lythraceae stunting.
 

Pikez

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fablau said:
Very good stuff indeed! I wish to contribute to the discussion by telling you my experience with Rotala Nanjenshan, that since I moved into EI I am no longer able to grow it (it just stops growing and dies...).

The pictures below are from my tank 8 years ago, much before I discovered EI. That's my current 75gl tank, and at that time I had just Eco Complete as substrate topped with gravel, and dosing just 5m of Flourish Comprehensive once a week (!!!). At that time I had just 3 T8 lights on that tank (40w each, for a total of 120w), 8 hours a day. Co2 was just 3 bubbles per second, I guess about 0.6-0.7 PH drop? But I remember I used to start Co2 very early in the morning (at around 6am) and stop at around 9pm. Lights used to start at around 1pm and stop at 9pm.


Other details: I always had a over-sized sump, so I guess I had a lot of degassing. Also, I used to not clean pre-filters much (probably just one a month?) and I remember I had almost no circulation, I had a very small Eheim 1000 driving everything (Co2 AM1000 reactor included!)


At that time, no algae in the tank, zero. Java moss also used to grow like crazy, and now I struggle to keep it alive.

You are describing a classic low metabolism tank. Yes, you had light and CO2, but both of it was low to medium levels. You were depending mostly on fish waste and a little on Flourish.


Have you considered going back to the exact same routine?


What is the #1 reason that is stopping you?
 

burr740

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Pikez said:
If I am being fair, then, yes, I cannot discount your statement. If my low-trace dosage is NOT the sweet spot, but just closer to it, then, theoretically, I could still have stunting from incorrect traces. TBH I must admit finding that hard to fathom. :)

Doesnt necessarily mean you're still dosing too much, could be too little.


Dosing less than you were before appears to work better for some species. That much you know. But what are the odds you hit the ideal range on the first try? You just took my basic routine as a starting point. That's why I suggested playing with the levels, both up and yes even down perhaps, something like .005 increments.


(That noise you hear is Tom roaring with laughter :) )


Also, at some point add the Mn and see what happens. For the same reason we add more Fe, because these low levels of csmb doesnt supply enough. Not saying it's a problem but the only way to rule it out is to try it.
 
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fablau

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Pikez said:
You are describing a classic low metabolism tank. Yes, you had light and CO2, but both of it was low to medium levels. You were depending mostly on fish waste and a little on Flourish.


Have you considered going back to the exact same routine?


What is the #1 reason that is stopping you?

Yes, right, light was low and so needed resources. Fact is that at a certain point, mass increased too much and I begun having some little algae around, and so I begun dosing macros (Flourish Lin) and I begun to screw up, tried to increase light because I wanted to grow Glosso, etc... Until the point I decided to try EI. Of course I can try to get back to that kind of tank, but I guess I'd need to reduce my plant mass in some way... And maybe forget some kind of plants I can now grow pretty well like Cabomba Furcata or Ludwigia Puerensis? Not sure though, maybe I could grow them well anyway!


Fact is, since I increased ferts and Co2, I lost the ability to grow that rotala, AR and Java Moss.
 

fablau

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burr740 said:
Doesnt necessarily mean you're still dosing too much, could be too little.


Dosing less than you were before appears to work better for some species. That much you know. But what are the odds you hit the ideal range on the first try? You just took my basic routine as a starting point. That's why I suggested playing with the levels, both up and yes even down perhaps, something like .005 increments.


(That noise you hear is Tom roaring with laughter :) )


Also, at some point add the Mn and see what happens. For the same reason we add more Fe, because these low levels of csmb doesnt supply enough. Not saying it's a problem but the only way to rule it out is to try it.

Very interesting Burr, I am thinking if the lack of Mn happens in my tank as well every time I try to reduce traces... What happens is an improved situation for some plants, but a worse situation for other plants... Maybe supplying more Mn could help in some way? That's where a photometer would come handy!
 

burr740

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I have no idea if additional Mn is important or not, but it seems a logical possibility. Csmb has a lot more Mn than anything else besides Fe, by a fairly wide margin.


Here's the breakdown of a .5 Fe dose in ppm (using Zorfox' download calculator)


B - 0.061255743


Cu - 0.006891271


dGH - 0.089556574


Fe - 0.5


Mg - 0.10719755


Mn - 0.143185299


Mo - 0.003828484


Zn - 0.028330781


Obviously the ratio stays the same regardless of dose.


We know it is common to need additional Fe with csmb, even EI folks do it.


So it seems logical that Mn could be similarly lacking if someone is dosing csmb in very small amounts.


Main thing I wanted to get across is for Pikez to try slightly different amounts during the "low micro" phase of the experiment. Because at these levels, for me at least, small changes in one thing or another can make a big difference.
 

Pikez

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burr740 said:
Doesnt necessarily mean you're still dosing too much, could be too little.


Dosing less than you were before appears to work better for some species. That much you know. But what are the odds you hit the ideal range on the first try? You just took my basic routine as a starting point. That's why I suggested playing with the levels, both up and yes even down perhaps, something like .005 increments.


(That noise you hear is Tom roaring with laughter :) )


Also, at some point add the Mn and see what happens. For the same reason we add more Fe, because these low levels of csmb doesnt supply enough. Not saying it's a problem but the only way to rule it out is to try it.

I am working under the assumption that your trace levels are fairly close to your tank's sweet spot given how often you've tried to increase it, just to return to the same old low levels over and over. Given that our tanks are both somewhat high KH tanks with inert substrates, high light, and high CO2, your tank is fairly comparable to the Kill Tank.


I'll certainly play more with fert levels in the coming months. I'll stick with this (your) basic routine till the end of the year. I must confess, it's worked out better than I'd anticipated. It's given me a lot of confidence to push limits. And I intend to do that. As they say, the fruits are on the skinny branches. People typically want to move to the 'mean' to reduce failure and duplicate what's worked for others.


By definition, the Kill Tank, is designed to, well, attempt killing Lythraceae species by pushing them to their tolerable limits.


Around New Years, I will reduce macros (probably to 1/3rd current levels, in other words 2-0.25-2 ppm of Nitrate-phoshate-potassium every other day) and keep traces the same. That'll probably last a couple of months.


I will probably do full EI strength micros + low macros for a couple of months after that. Then EI micros and EI macros. That'll take us right thru to next summer.
 

Pikez

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fablau said:
Yes, right, light was low and so needed resources. Fact is that at a certain point, mass increased too much and I begun having some little algae around, and so I begun dosing macros (Flourish Lin) and I begun to screw up, tried to increase light because I wanted to grow Glosso, etc... Until the point I decided to try EI. Of course I can try to get back to that kind of tank, but I guess I'd need to reduce my plant mass in some way... And maybe forget some kind of plants I can now grow pretty well like Cabomba Furcata or Ludwigia Puerensis? Not sure though, maybe I could grow them well anyway!


Fact is, since I increased ferts and Co2, I lost the ability to grow that rotala, AR and Java Moss.

Is it fair to say that you are hesitant to go back to your original light + CO2 + low biomass system because (#1 reason) you want to keep more plants and more challenging plants that you feel require EI?


Lower biomass is a reality you have to embrace if you want less competition for resources. Low biomass does not mean sparse - it just means not allowing the (often exponential) plant volume to get away from you.


But I think you will be surprised at the variety of plants you can grow in your low metabolism tank. Do not let this reason hold you back.
 

Christophe

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burr740 said:
I have no idea if additional Mn is important or not, but it seems a logical possibility. Csmb has a lot more Mn than anything else besides Fe, by a fairly wide margin.

Here's the breakdown of a .5 Fe dose in ppm (using Zorfox' download calculator)


B - 0.061255743


Cu - 0.006891271


dGH - 0.089556574


Fe - 0.5


Mg - 0.10719755


Mn - 0.143185299


Mo - 0.003828484


Zn - 0.028330781


Obviously the ratio stays the same regardless of dose.


We know it is common to need additional Fe with csmb, even EI folks do it.


So it seems logical that Mn could be similarly lacking if someone is dosing csmb in very small amounts.


Main thing I wanted to get across is for Pikez to try slightly different amounts during the "low micro" phase of the experiment. Because at these levels, for me at least, small changes in one thing or another can make a big difference.

Something you should keep in mind with the composition of CSM+B is that the boron is added as an aftermarket thing -- each provider has their own secret recipe for what boron-providing compound they include, and how much. You have to ask the seller what they added. Hopefully they're smart and can actually tell you!
 

scottward

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Pikez - just a thought - temperature - are you keeping this consistent in the kill tank? I guess it will be cooling down where you live, so keeping the temperature consistent should be relatively easy with a heater. Going the other way is harder (i.e. keeping the tank consistently cooler).
 

Pikez

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burr740 said:
I have no idea if additional Mn is important or not, but it seems a logical possibility. Csmb has a lot more Mn than anything else besides Fe, by a fairly wide margin.

Here's the breakdown of a .5 Fe dose in ppm (using Zorfox' download calculator)


B - 0.061255743


Cu - 0.006891271


dGH - 0.089556574


Fe - 0.5


Mg - 0.10719755


Mn - 0.143185299


Mo - 0.003828484


Zn - 0.028330781


Obviously the ratio stays the same regardless of dose.


We know it is common to need additional Fe with csmb, even EI folks do it.


So it seems logical that Mn could be similarly lacking if someone is dosing csmb in very small amounts.


Main thing I wanted to get across is for Pikez to try slightly different amounts during the "low micro" phase of the experiment. Because at these levels, for me at least, small changes in one thing or another can make a big difference.

Your argument: EI folks have to supplement CSM+B with additional Fe to prevent iron chlorosis, therefore Manganese supplementation may also be required because Mn is the 2nd most prevalent trace mineral, right after Fe.


The argument holds merit from a theoretical perspective.


But where do you draw the line? At some point, you will have to supplement CSM+B with more CSM+B. LOL!


Still, this is the best argument I have heard so far for Mn boosting. Not yet, but I might try it to see what happens after my current dosing plan.
 

Pikez

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scottward said:
Pikez - just a thought - temperature - are you keeping this consistent in the kill tank? I guess it will be cooling down where you live, so keeping the temperature consistent should be relatively easy with a heater. Going the other way is harder (i.e. keeping the tank consistently cooler).

Yes, temp is the same. Mid 70s.
 

burr740

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Pikez said:
Your argument: EI folks have to supplement CSM+B with additional Fe to prevent iron chlorosis, therefore Manganese supplementation may also be required because Mn is the 2nd most prevalent trace mineral, right after Fe.


The argument holds merit from a theoretical perspective.


But where do you draw the line? At some point, you will have to supplement CSM+B with more CSM+B. LOL!


Still, this is the best argument I have heard so far for Mn boosting. Not yet, but I might try it to see what happens after my current dosing plan.

Heh, fair point!


EI folks certainly dont have to worry about it. But dosing such small amounts of csmb like we're talking about here, there could very well be a shortage of Mn, since apparently it is the 2nd most used micro by a long shot.


Anyway it just seems like you have a good bit of time here to see if you can fine tune something better over the next six or seven weeks.


Like go down to .01 csmb for two weeks and see what happens (leave Fe dtpa where it is) Then go up to .02 for the next two weeks. Then go with whatever amount worked the best for the final 2-3 weeks, and add the Mn.


It's just a thought, I get what you're saying otherwise too
 

fablau

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Pikez said:
Is it fair to say that you are hesitant to go back to your original light + CO2 + low biomass system because (#1 reason) you want to keep more plants and more challenging plants that you feel require EI?


Lower biomass is a reality you have to embrace if you want less competition for resources. Low biomass does not mean sparse - it just means not allowing the (often exponential) plant volume to get away from you.


But I think you will be surprised at the variety of plants you can grow in your low metabolism tank. Do not let this reason hold you back.

Yes, you got it right. I am afraid to be limited in the choice of plants, mostly the "red plants".... Even though I was able to grow fantastic AR! Well... If I fail with my current plans, I will definitively try to get back to that kind of tank. Thanks for the encouragement!
 

burr740

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scottward said:
And besides Mn, what about Mg?

Well Mg is not what I'd call a micro nutrient, but I suppose technically it is. Maybe? Dont know.


Either way the amount in csmb is negligible since target levels for Mg are generally 5-10 ppm, not 10ths of a ppm.


Most folks that need additional Mg get it from GH booster, or by itself in the form of Epsom salt (MgSO4)
 

fablau

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Christophe said:
Something you should keep in mind with the composition of CSM+B is that the boron is added as an aftermarket thing -- each provider has their own secret recipe for what boron-providing compound they include, and how much. You have to ask the seller what they added. Hopefully they're smart and can actually tell you!

But then, what value for B is the calculator we all use reporting? Based on what data if you question it? I never questioned that, and I thought the concentration of B for CSM defined in the calculator was correct...
 

fablau

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Burr, about suppplying additional Mn, why not seeing the need of supplying additional single elements? CSM includes a pretty high concentration of Mn compared to other elements such as Zn or Cu (higher in other trace mixes, if I am not mistaken), so, why not consider the possibility to bottom out other elements besides Mn with such low dosing of it?
 

Christophe

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fablau said:
But then, what value for B is the calculator we all use reporting? Based on what data if you question it? I never questioned that, and I thought the concentration of B for CSM defined in the calculator was correct...

Last time I bought CSM+B, I asked GLA for what the concentrations were for their CSM+B -- They gave me numbers that ALMOST matched the label numbers for regular unaltered Plantex CSM (which contains no boron off-the-shelf), but totally didn't match what the calculator said. The boron percentage they quoted me was much lower (about 1/20th) than what any of the calculators I'm familiar with say. He said it was a 'trade secret' what compound he uses, but that there are several, and that his main competitors tend to use laundry-grade borax, which is sodium tetraborate decahydrate.


The calculator MAY be correct for some given reseller of altered Plantex CSM. The various resellers don't necessarily add the same source for boron, and not necessarily in the same amount as the calculator. They might not even be consistent from batch to batch. This is one of the reasons I went to mixing my own micros from scratch. It's not particularly difficult or expensive, and I can guarantee what's in it, and that it's consistent.


The main thing to remember, the bottom line is that boron is a trace element -- if we're adding it at all even in tiny amounts, it's probably close to sufficient.
 
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