Rotala Kill Tank

Pikez

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LOLOL. Idk what to say except this is very interesting.

But is it really as simple as rich substrate and a lean water column? I cant imagine the water column being all that "lean" considering what has to be leeching into it.

Maybe plants in a very rich substrate adapt to not draw in so much from the water? Which offers them some protection, or something like that...

You should test the water for whatever you can and see what's in it, like NO3, PO4 etc

Wouldn't it be funny if it were as simple as rich substrate and lean water? Probably not as luck would have it.

But you do make a good point - there is probably quite a bit leaching into the water column, my guess is ammonia. It's like week 2 of Aquasoil with no water changes. You can pull off strings of diatoms in your hand.
 

fablau

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Wouldn't it be funny if it were as simple as rich substrate and lean water? Probably not as luck would have it.

But you do make a good point - there is probably quite a bit leaching into the water column, my guess is ammonia. It's like week 2 of Aquasoil with no water changes. You can pull off strings of diatoms in your hand.

Very interesting Vin! How often are you changing water?
 

scottward

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Interesting. What are all the different plants you have in the super rich substrate?

Rich but otherwise "balanced" though?

I wonder what the result would be if the substrate contained very high amounts of a particular thing? I'm pretty confused by all the toxicity conversations bouncing around everywhere...
 

Pikez

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Interesting. What are all the different plants you have in the super rich substrate?

Rich but otherwise "balanced" though?

I wonder what the result would be if the substrate contained very high amounts of a particular thing? I'm pretty confused by all the toxicity conversations bouncing around everywhere...

All the usual suspects (my stunting gallery) - a couple of varieties of wallichii, a half dozen varieties of macrandra, Ammannia gracilis, senegalensis, crassicaulis, and a couple of varieties of pedicellata. Rotala Sunset. AR Mini, AR Variegated. And a few odd plants that I didn't have room for elsewhere.

I wouldn't call the tank balanced by any means. But certainly very well-fed once the plants send out roots. This tank could go a couple of years without water column feeding.

Trace toxicity believers are always present in the fringes. They seem to be an anti-social and tactless bunch, possibly because they feel they have the solution and nobody wants to listen to those ideas. They're not wrong. If you grow Lythraceae and dose all your ferts exclusively thru the water column and you have old Aquasoil or inert gravel, you too would become convinced that trace toxicity is real.

I've not been able to consistently grow Ammannia without stunting using water column dosing, regardless of KH or CO2 levels. But I have been able to grow Ammannia under poor CO2 and hard water - CONSISTENTLY - if I root fed them. But for the sake or argument, let's assume I have poor husbandry skills. How do you explain Burr's experience with Ammannia? His maintenance and husbandry skills are about as good as they get (just look at his award-winning tanks!). But he cannot grow Ammannia consistently despite flawless husbandry and high CO2. But he also doses his water column as the primary source of plant food.

Most Ammannia species are reluctant aquarium plants and I am of the belief that they are much better at nutrient selectivity through their roots and terrible at it if you leaf-feed them. You can get by with leaf feeding, but the stars have to align and you have to know what you are doing. Whereas any idiot (see example above) can grow them if relying exclusively on fresh aquasoil or O+ or root tabs.

In my experience 95% of plants are thrilled with high water column feeding or call it EI. But EI causes hobbyist fatigue - you gotta clean, do big water changes, cut and trim and vacuum and on and on. It's work to keep up with rapidly growing plants. And if you screw up, algae shows up in a hurry. If you don't have time or are lazy, consider quarter-to-third-strength EI. This is a great compromise.

But plants like Ludwigia, Blyxa, and most other plants thrive under full EI. The other 5% of plants have issues under EI.

The Ghori method - about one-third strength EI (13-1.5-13 nitrate-phosphate-potassium respectively, per week) plus Seachem Flourish Comp and Iron for traces is a great compromise between touchy Rotalas and greedy Ludwigia. Most people I've directed to this method are happy with their Rotala.
 
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nicpapa

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LOLOL. Idk what to say except this is very interesting.

But is it really as simple as rich substrate and a lean water column? I cant imagine the water column being all that "lean" considering what has to be leeching into it.

Maybe plants in a very rich substrate adapt to not draw in so much from the water? Which offers them some protection, or something like that...

You should test the water for whatever you can and see what's in it, like NO3, PO4 etc

Hi there.
I believe in that...
I cant explain that i can grow in the same tank , pepfect emersed pantanal, and golden nesae but inside the water they have always problem...
And dont tell me that is the co2...
So if plants above the water grow perfect , that tell me that they have all the food they need.
I have pantanal in some tanks to try something diferents...

IMG_20180830_194453.jpg


IMG_20180830_194526.jpg



IMG_20180830_194550.jpg




and this is a diferent tank, wiht again stucked nesae... :)

IMG_20180830_194719.jpg
 

Tom Barr

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There's more to sediments for some species. Sediments take some time to settle in and get a good bacterial colony going. Once that happens, then water changes can be skipped.
If you want to slow the rates of growth down, start with less light. Makes everything easier farther down the road no matter what.
The resistance to adjusting light is staggering in the hobby.

Ammania gracilus I grew nicely under 1.5 w/gal of T12 light on a 55 gallon.
Tap was rock hard, sediment was flourite. I used TMG back them.

Got too big, the main reason why I do not mess with it.
N crassiculis is much nicer behaved and deeper red.


Note, Ammannia (Neasea-old) are not found in submersed conditions but on dry land in clay loam soils.
It's not a particularly "aquatic" plant but it adapts when we torture it.

Once a plant hits the surface a dramatic shift occurs.
Gas exchange is rapid and no longer limiting. But ethylene also...............can escape unlike submersed plant.
That causes a huge difference in plant allocation. Plant cell growth becomes much denser, all the resources go to the new emergent leaves.

Rotala and Ammannia both can live long time frames in ADA aqua soil, new or old. Just trim and replant. Generally they do best if you top them.
I've done water changes. I've dosed after. I've dosed Traces. I've dosed macros. I have not been able to harm these touchy species with fertilizers.

If I allow too much biomass, flow reduction, light blocking other plants causing them to rot........ or the CO2 runs out, then I will get algae and poor growth.
My tanks inside I try this and stop dosing at all..........I get algae, poor plant growth on some species, decent growth on others. The difference? Light, filtration, uprooting often.

So I should be able to try and do the same methods and be successful if they are robust and workable correct? Ferts, tap, light can be adjusted to be the same.
I suppose I could switch to a sponge type filter for the 120 and see. I've thought about it.

The non CO2 tank also grew the Ammannia well, smaller, maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd the size. It grows nice UG and a few others. Have not tried Rotala's.
 

Tom Barr

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Wouldn't it be funny if it were as simple as rich substrate and lean water? Probably not as luck would have it.

But you do make a good point - there is probably quite a bit leaching into the water column, my guess is ammonia. It's like week 2 of Aquasoil with no water changes. You can pull off strings of diatoms in your hand.

I've tried switching the plants around, does not work well with the tanks in thr garage vs the tanks inside when I stop dosing and treat them the same.
I've dosed the tanks out in the garage the same way and done water changes. Plants still do great.

So I'll be picking away at the light and filter issue/differences.
My idea is to use a block sponge and siliconed chamber outside the tank that takes water in from the Overflow and a small power head returns it. Evaporation is an issue. I'll likely just slow the flow down even more on the sump return and add teo returns on opposite sides rather than one fatty.

I cannot think why it would make that much of a difference other than the flow.

I'm soon to be switching lighting on a couple fo tanks after a long hold out.
So I'll be able to adjust that over a massive range.

I have a couple of other things to try still if these do not do well.
 

Pikez

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The non CO2 tank also grew the Ammannia well, smaller, maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd the size. It grows nice UG and a few others. Have not tried Rotala's.

I have a 20-gal non-CO2 Rotala Kill Tank that I set up with equally rich substrate. I think I did that last Fall. Has tap water + sponge filter and an old first-gen Mainland LED (useless crap) that may put out 20 umols at the substrate. I may have changed water 3 times since then. I don't pay any attention to that tank at all. Have wallichii and green mac in it. Grows perfectly fine. NO stunting...just really slow, which I'm Ok with.
 

rajkm

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Wow .. that’s a lot of Osmocote. I did a small bag in filter on my tank in the garage. The plants loved it, so did algae. What I got was green water and it so happens that when you get green water, everything in that tank is thriving but you just can’t see it.
I wonder if there is a better alternative to osmocote so it doesn’t float up when uprooting but is still a slow release. Also with low PH osmocote leaches our more ferts so may be a new casing for osmocote which is stable in lower Ph might help.
 

Tom Barr

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I have a 20-gal non-CO2 Rotala Kill Tank that I set up with equally rich substrate. I think I did that last Fall. Has tap water + sponge filter and an old first-gen Mainland LED (useless crap) that may put out 20 umols at the substrate. I may have changed water 3 times since then. I don't pay any attention to that tank at all. Have wallichii and green mac in it. Grows perfectly fine. NO stunting...just really slow, which I'm Ok with.

Try a better light.

Main thing it being able to scale it up. MTS sediments had similar results.
Messier though if you uproot, but okay if you just top.
I want to do both, so ADA AS it is for me.

I think the lower flow helps considerbly rather than the filtration type.
Aeration likely helps with surface scum with sponge filters.

I'm about to pull the plug on a customized LED 3 w cree system with a controller.

The non CO2 tank has low flow also, but clean surface, soem aeration water breakage, but in that case, it ADDS CO2.
I think the O2 helps bacterial cycling and better microfauna.

Ferts can be all over the place with these systems, eg, you can ramp up the growth easily or leave it be, less management= less growth and work, or more growth and work: more growth/production/gardening.
Most plants seem good, but some do poorer that appear to need more N if you limit.
While flow is low, the overall tank still has mixing on smaller tanks, so scaling up, you likely need multiple returns.

I'm redoing the indoor tanks with different hardscapes ATM. So changing the returns and flow rate, not a big issue.
 

Pikez

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Have to ask this.
Vin have you tried using capped soil of any kind yet?

Not recently.

I've tried Home Depot style commercial top soil before, but that was almost 20 years ago. Didn't care much for it because I didn't sieve it properly before use and before long, all kinds of crap started to float up. Too much organic crap. Ended that experiment quickly.

I've also used backyard soil that I dug up. That wasn't too bad.

One of my closest friends has an 8-foot, 300 gal Discus tank (we collected the fish ourselves 3 years ago) and he likes to keep things simple. He dumped a few bags of top soil (without sieving), covered with gravel, stuck some plants, tap water, and very light CO2. Added Discus. It's been going great for 3 years. He doesn't understand why people bitch and moan about plants so much. He keeps it simple. Low light. 0.25 to 0.5 pH drop. Adds a little dry ferts every now and then. Grows plants just fine.
 

Pikez

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Wow .. that’s a lot of Osmocote. I did a small bag in filter on my tank in the garage. The plants loved it, so did algae. What I got was green water and it so happens that when you get green water, everything in that tank is thriving but you just can’t see it.
I wonder if there is a better alternative to osmocote so it doesn’t float up when uprooting but is still a slow release. Also with low PH osmocote leaches our more ferts so may be a new casing for osmocote which is stable in lower Ph might help.

Yes, the idea was to put a laughably excessive amount of nutrients in the substrate. I didn't want anyone to think 'well, that's not a lot.' I wanted to add so much that people would think 'This dude's bat-shit crazy!' Speaking of, if I had some guano with me at the time, I probably would have added it too. Only then could I prove my point that high nutrient levels do not cause stunting, provided it is in the substrate. I already knew that, but to prove a point, you need gratuitous demonstrability, preferably packaged as entertainment. Subtlety doesn't cut it.

Yeah, I get green water if I turn on both Finnex LEDs. With just one, I'm OK. There is a lot of ammonia coming off the Osmocote - ammonium nitrate and ammonium phosphate. That's why. Thank goodness it is slow release - if not, you'd have serious issues.

You may want to try one or two O+ beads in the sump or a filter bag. Not enough to cause algae, but nice to release ammonia over time. See what it does. Go up in number of beads from there. This is a fairly decent way of releasing small amounts of ammonia and other cool stuff for the plants.

If you want slow release, you're stuck with O+ or other polymer coated products like it.
 

Phishless

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I've tried Home Depot style commercial top soil before, but that was almost 20 years ago. Didn't care much for it because I didn't sieve it properly before use and before long, all kinds of crap started to float up.

If sifted and cleaned well, as in removing any debris that floats it can be an awesome substrate when capped.
Sorry the first go around didn't work so well!
Don't discount soil as an extremely good substrate!
 
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Tom Barr

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Slow release is a thermodynamically controlled osmocoat process.......... so is the rate of growth, so cooler temps= slower release of ferts= slower growth, this is also true for most algae that pester us.

Also, cooler temps= more O2.
Less respirational energy.
 
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Pikez

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Just a quick update on the 1 lb-Osmocote Kill Tank.

3 to 4 weeks ago, the tank was completely overrun with algae. Mostly diatoms and hair algae. Some fuzz stuff that I could not name. The diatoms and hair algae were probably partly fed by the new Fluval and controsoil under the inert cap. At first I thought the algae was all due to the crazy amount of O+ in the substrate. But it also looked an awful lot like a tank set up with fresh aquasoil. Sure, there is less ammonia in Fluval, but still enough to cause an algae bloom if you only do once-a-week water changes.

Instead of calling the experiment a failure, I decided to continue. The beauty of having a tank in the corner of the garage without any fish is that I don't look at it except when I do WC. So it was really easy to ignore and let the experiment continue. So I got an idea. If the leaching ammonia was the culprit behind the algae, if I removed the ammonia from the water column, algae should mostly disappear.

So..why not:
  1. Add floating plants to suck up extra ammonia. At first I thought of adding water hyacinth because they are insanely good at it. But settled for water lettuce (Pistia).
  2. Raise lights to allow water lettuce to float without getting light burn.
  3. Increase light to force water lettuce to suck up ammonia.
  4. Add a little K, PO4 and traces to force the water lettuce to suck up ammonia/um. In other words, all ferts except N, forcing water lettuce to drive N to zero in the water column.
So that is what I did.



I waited two weeks.

RESULTS:
  • Water lettuce multiplied and I've had to throw some away.
  • Algae has disappeared for the most part. There is still tiny bits left.
  • Plants are still growing. Plants that have managed to grow roots all the way to the bottom of the substrate (Osmocote is on the glass bottom of the tank, below everything) are doing well.
  • The plants with shallow roots that have not sent down roots all the way to the bottom are struggling from low N.
Water lettuce is so effective at sucking out N from the water when provided with everything else that I have actually started adding about 1.5 ppm nitrate back into the water column daily. Just to help out plants without deep roots. Without my adding nitrate into the water column, I am sure it was at or close to zero.

Here is a shot from this morning after I took out about 2 lbs of Rotala and Ammannia. The tank looks like crap because I cut a ton of plants in about 2 minutes without looking or caring. I wanted to remove plant biomass and feed my cichlids with it. Two week ago, I couldn't even see the plants - they were smothered with algae.



So here we are.

One pound of Osmocote and a whole bunch of other nutritious stuff in the substrate. Algae on the run. Plants growing OK.

What next?

I'll probably remove the water lettuce to see if the plants do better because the lettuce is a nutrient vacuum cleaner, leaving noting for foliar feeding in plants with weak root systems. I also want to see if algae will return without the lettuce.